8 ms·

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. Th

I think this stems in part from the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture we have in the US, where its almost expected that most kids won't be good at mathematics. The side effect of this, imo, is that fields that are close to math or dependent on it (physics, stats, CS, etc.) pick up a piece of that stigma and idea that its acceptable to be bad at these things. I've seen occasional articles about quants on wall street and how a good number of them are Russian/Eastern European (this kind of thing - https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-21/how-russia-has-lost-its-mathematical-minds-to-the-west https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-01-21/how-russi... ) and I feel this is another directly related element - having a strong math culture allows you to have a strong CS culture. I've been happy to see that in the last decade, the US is starting to start bringing the pieces we need to get that kind of culture back - the popularity of startups and programming with the media that bring them to the attention of the average person. Space is cool again, and movies like "The Martian" are, imo, absolutely critical in making science/engineering something worth striving for. Hopefully we'll see some of this trickle down to our educational systems in the near future.

pm90 9y ago
Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. I think the problem is expecting some "nice" (friendly, etc) way of teaching math, which dilutes their content (like Disney-fying a novel). The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there.
  - k0doque 9y ago
    I advise taking a look at the mir titles or the Israel Gelfand books. Looking from it, Russian are really good at producing top notch popular science. Tough there is no fry, their math book are almost game like, with few carefully built example and very clear explanation using only some diagram when needed (consequently their book are quite small) and the exercise are absolutely not rote based, except the first few exercice, and even then they all serve to illustrate a specific part of a concept, all the others are puzzle like problem. Putting lots of full color image is not making math "fun", well built and interesting problem is.
    - pm90 9y ago
      OMG I LOVED THE MIR BOOKS! Yes, they were incredibly simple, weren't littered with images, only essential diagrams. And the English translations were very good... I can only imagine what the Russian language versions were.
  - watwut 9y ago
    > The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there. Not entirely. A lot of it is problem solving exercises as opposed to rote solve 20 exactly same problems in row seen in us books. Memorization won't help you solve those exercises. There is also les focus on arithmetic and more on equations much sooner. If you actually like math, you will prefer Russian exercises, cause they challenge you.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- alagappanr 9y ago
  Agree! And it's not just limited to math. I used to study for my engineering entrance exams with the Problems in General Physics book by IE Irodov. They were some of the most challenging and creative problems that I have ever solved. They are quite interesting and require critical thinking to solve. Even the problems I later studied in actual engineering courses didn't come any close. The books by Russians in any of the STEM courses are really well written and approach problem solving in a way that most American and/or Indian books don't.
maxxxxx 9y ago
the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture So true. It's cool to say you are bad at math.
ardit33 9y ago
Apart from the former communist math teaching being much better, I think it is cultural as well. Being an engineer in a former communist country was (is) a ticket to good life, similar lifestyle to a doctor or a lawyer. In the US being an engineer is seen as boring, and something only nerdy un-socialable people do. Also there are more attractive alternatives to pursue for smart people in the US. Basically, it boils down that a society will produce the type of talent that it values (by both training, and steering talented folks to certain disciplines). I'd say it is the same reason the US sucks at producing soccer talents, event compared to much smaller countries like Croatia or Belgium.
- jrimbault 9y ago
  On the other hand, a lack of math teachers could be explained because people who have decent math skills can now live off that skill by being an engineer much more easily than before when they would have been math teachers.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    So a society with a paucity of math skilled people means less teachers with math skills which perpetuates the cycle?
  - Fezzik 9y ago
    That was my thought. I wonder what the backgrounds are of Russian teachers/professors of mathematics? I do not know oodles of math teachers, but all of my teachers as a kid, and friends who teach math now, received a four year degree on mathematics and went right in to teaching. They were very uninspiring (career-wise) people, with little knowledge of how math is applied outside of a high-school/university context.
  - JBlue42 9y ago
    Anecdotes from growing up in the rural US. In high school: - We went through three math teachers one year because they could find less stressful, better-paying work as accountants. - My AP Stats teacher had to work weekends at Best Buy.
nopinsight 9y ago
It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. Thus the US math education may in effect reduce the chances of many people achieving their potentials. Tangentially, can someone knowledgeable shed light on why American math curriculum is significantly easier than those in East Asia and Russia?
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  Logical thinking skills are the gateway to independent thought. Too much of that and the proles could stage a revolt.
  - webnrrd2k 9y ago
    Wouldn't that be true in Russia and East Asia as well?
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      Except their citizens are aware that their freedom is constrained. Americans are deluded by the "land of the free" mantra. The powers that be don't want to face a collective red pill movement.
- arkades 9y ago
  The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number. More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said was law. So if a teacher said you were learning the multiplication table this week, parents didn't argue it was too much, or encourage you to "do your best." You'd be drilled on those times tables until you wanted to kill someone, but you'd damn well be expected to have them memorized by the end of the week. The idea that people were driven by good money is a western misinterpretation, or whatever the cultural equivalent of anachronism is. My grandmother used to scold my aunt for marrying an engineer instead of a tin knocker, like my mother did, because tin knockers brought home the real money. I think those two elements - expectations and parental cooperation - don't get enough credit, by far.
placeybordeaux 9y ago
Yeah it was frustrating to see a good friend of mine that has taught himself to make basic computer games in gamemaker, that can play competitive MTG (notable due to the large state machine you have to simulate in your head) and can pick up new systems quickly shyed away from CS because he'd need to take a math class.
FTA 9y ago
This sounds a lot like stereotype threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat). I'd say though, rather than "it's acceptable to be bad at these things," people instead avoid it _because_ they feel they will do poorly and fail at it if they try.

pm90 9y ago

Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. Eventually, things like Khan Academy might prove a lot more useful in making math and science a culturally desirable field.

coldtea 9y ago
>Space was always cool. Math, not so much, simply because in the race to catch up on the space race, wayy too much emphasis was placed on teaching math instead of teaching math well, which turned a lot of people off of it. I think the problem is expecting some "nice" (friendly, etc) way of teaching math, which dilutes their content (like Disney-fying a novel). The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there.
- k0doque 9y ago
  I advise taking a look at the mir titles or the Israel Gelfand books. Looking from it, Russian are really good at producing top notch popular science. Tough there is no fry, their math book are almost game like, with few carefully built example and very clear explanation using only some diagram when needed (consequently their book are quite small) and the exercise are absolutely not rote based, except the first few exercice, and even then they all serve to illustrate a specific part of a concept, all the others are puzzle like problem. Putting lots of full color image is not making math "fun", well built and interesting problem is.
  - pm90 9y ago
    OMG I LOVED THE MIR BOOKS! Yes, they were incredibly simple, weren't littered with images, only essential diagrams. And the English translations were very good... I can only imagine what the Russian language versions were.
- watwut 9y ago
  > The Russians we are comparing here, don't have any "better" teaching methods. They just suck it up and study what's there. Not entirely. A lot of it is problem solving exercises as opposed to rote solve 20 exactly same problems in row seen in us books. Memorization won't help you solve those exercises. There is also les focus on arithmetic and more on equations much sooner. If you actually like math, you will prefer Russian exercises, cause they challenge you.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
alagappanr 9y ago
Agree! And it's not just limited to math. I used to study for my engineering entrance exams with the Problems in General Physics book by IE Irodov. They were some of the most challenging and creative problems that I have ever solved. They are quite interesting and require critical thinking to solve. Even the problems I later studied in actual engineering courses didn't come any close. The books by Russians in any of the STEM courses are really well written and approach problem solving in a way that most American and/or Indian books don't.

maxxxxx 9y ago

the "oh I'm so bad at math" culture So true. It's cool to say you are bad at math.

ardit33 9y ago

Apart from the former communist math teaching being much better, I think it is cultural as well. Being an engineer in a former communist country was (is) a ticket to good life, similar lifestyle to a doctor or a lawyer. In the US being an engineer is seen as boring, and something only nerdy un-socialable people do. Also there are more attractive alternatives to pursue for smart people in the US. Basically, it boils down that a society will produce the type of talent that it values (by both training, and steering talented folks to certain disciplines). I'd say it is the same reason the US sucks at producing soccer talents, event compared to much smaller countries like Croatia or Belgium.

jrimbault 9y ago
On the other hand, a lack of math teachers could be explained because people who have decent math skills can now live off that skill by being an engineer much more easily than before when they would have been math teachers.
- r00fus 9y ago
  So a society with a paucity of math skilled people means less teachers with math skills which perpetuates the cycle?
- Fezzik 9y ago
  That was my thought. I wonder what the backgrounds are of Russian teachers/professors of mathematics? I do not know oodles of math teachers, but all of my teachers as a kid, and friends who teach math now, received a four year degree on mathematics and went right in to teaching. They were very uninspiring (career-wise) people, with little knowledge of how math is applied outside of a high-school/university context.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  Anecdotes from growing up in the rural US. In high school: - We went through three math teachers one year because they could find less stressful, better-paying work as accountants. - My AP Stats teacher had to work weekends at Best Buy.

nopinsight 9y ago

It seems math textbooks in the US are 2-3 grade levels easier than those in East Asia. SAT Math is considered a piece of cake even by non-top but good students there. I heard Russian math is similarly rigorous. This reduces the level of logical thinking skills most American children get to practice from school. Programming well requires good abstract and logical thinking which is easier to develop from a young age. Thus the US math education may in effect reduce the chances of many people achieving their potentials. Tangentially, can someone knowledgeable shed light on why American math curriculum is significantly easier than those in East Asia and Russia?

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
Logical thinking skills are the gateway to independent thought. Too much of that and the proles could stage a revolt.
- webnrrd2k 9y ago
  Wouldn't that be true in Russia and East Asia as well?
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    Except their citizens are aware that their freedom is constrained. Americans are deluded by the "land of the free" mantra. The powers that be don't want to face a collective red pill movement.
arkades 9y ago
The 2-3 grade delta sounds about right. I was a good but not too math student in (Eastern European) country before moving here. I Didn't have to open a math book again for about 3 years. Most of my friends from the same generation of immigrants would give the same number. More was simply expected of us. Not "hoped for" or "aspired to", but expected. And parents weren't at loggerheads with teachers; what teachers said was law. So if a teacher said you were learning the multiplication table this week, parents didn't argue it was too much, or encourage you to "do your best." You'd be drilled on those times tables until you wanted to kill someone, but you'd damn well be expected to have them memorized by the end of the week. The idea that people were driven by good money is a western misinterpretation, or whatever the cultural equivalent of anachronism is. My grandmother used to scold my aunt for marrying an engineer instead of a tin knocker, like my mother did, because tin knockers brought home the real money. I think those two elements - expectations and parental cooperation - don't get enough credit, by far.

placeybordeaux 9y ago

Yeah it was frustrating to see a good friend of mine that has taught himself to make basic computer games in gamemaker, that can play competitive MTG (notable due to the large state machine you have to simulate in your head) and can pick up new systems quickly shyed away from CS because he'd need to take a math class.

FTA 9y ago

This sounds a lot like stereotype threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat). I'd say though, rather than "it's acceptable to be bad at these things," people instead avoid it _because_ they feel they will do poorly and fail at it if they try.