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Great marketing campaign, but philantropic stuff needs to be long term to be of any use. Short term stuff can in fact be counter-productive by hiding that there

Great marketing campaign, but philantropic stuff needs to be long term to be of any use. Short term stuff can in fact be counter-productive by hiding that there is a problem that needs to be resolved. The best solution for almost every response he got is: Introduce better legislation. Even charities are just bandaids over actual problems.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago
You can't legislate societies problems away. Legislation is just bandaids applied with the threat of violence for those who seek to remove them.
- Cozumel 9y ago
  > 'You can't legislate societies problems away' Could you elaborate? It seems pretty obvious that you can. No child labour, minimum wage laws, equal rights etc.
  - bobabooey02 9y ago
    The reason legislation like this isn't helping our country at the moment is because of globalization. Labor laws may help the workers, but it's a net negative if those laws just lead to the outsourcing of jobs. We need to choose between globalization for maximal gains for the rich, or protectionism for quality of life for our workers. At the moment, a middle ground doesn't seem possible.
    - matthewmacleod 9y ago
      Globalisation is fine where regulation can ensure that standards are still met. There is nothing that prevents domestic legislation setting standards for the working conditions of those who produce goods in foreign countries. Protectionism isn't going to help workers in the long term. We live in a global market; accepting that and using legislation to deal with negative outcomes is a totally valid approach. The fact that it hasn't been done is because of the large amount of money standing in the way of it.
      - bobabooey02 9y ago
        Theoretically this is true, but look at how it's worked in practice. Manufacturing was shipped to places like China and Mexico where the minimum wage and quality of life is much lower. When considering these things, should we consider the theory of globalization, or the reality of what is happening?
    - chris_t 9y ago
      I'd be interested in seeing proof that protectionism actually does benefit workers; I suspect the effect is mixed. Cheap goods from overseas often can help improve poorer people's standards of living, and it's not hard to see how protecting industries from more efficient competition overseas can benefit business owners.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        Part of the problem is that capital is more mobile than workers. You can send your factory bucks overseas a lot easier than a poor person can move to a country with a higher standard of living. We need to start asking the question of whether our legal systems should be friendly to capital at every opportunity.
    - GavinMcG 9y ago
      It's a little scary that you're advocating Americans compete by, say, doing away with child labor laws or safety standards. That's a disturbing enough view that you don't even want it linked to your primary HN account. There can absolutely be a middle ground. We can tax rent-seeking. We can quit the austerity focused trickle-down policies that have been shown to fail, and put money into the hands of people who will actually spend it. We can actively redistribute wealth. Why would you rather give up protections that cost our ancestors their lives to establish?
  - chris_t 9y ago
    Government doesn't have unlimited power to alter reality, there are countless examples of legislation being ineffective or having unintended consequences. The canonical example is prohibition of various drugs, but more recently the "ban the box" initiative is quite illustrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/consequences-of-ban-the-box/494435/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/consequ...
    - txru 9y ago
      That article is somewhat confusing. > "I told her about my conviction, and she wanted me to go deeper into what happened,” he told me, describing one interview in particular. “When I explained that I shot somebody in the back of the head, she didn’t want anything to do with me anymore." ... And then they never go into that more. Why is that not an acceptable reason to not hire someone?
  - nostrebored 9y ago
    All of these laws have pretty glaring problems though. Child labor combined with the emancipation system traps teenagers in abusive homes, minimum wage laws depend heavily on the elasticity of labor, equal rights laws seldom induce equality.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > Child labor combined with the emancipation system traps teenagers in abusive homes I don't understand what you mean here (I probably miss some background in US culture).
      - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
        The argument is that since a child can't work on their own and emancipation laws prevent a child from claiming independence until they can work on their own , children are stuck in abusive homes where they would otherwise work a full time job to get themselves out of the abuse. Note I don't really agree with this sentiment as abusing children is fairly illegal and it should be up to the justice system to prosecute the abusive households and also help the children find better homes, but we know that's inadequate in implementation right now.
        nostrebored 9y ago
        It's not inadequate, it just doesn't happen. I know people who were being deprived of food, beaten, subjected to chronic verbal abuse, kicked out of their house, from the age of 12-13 who had absolutely no recourse, no ability to make money, and no real way to do anything besides depend on the kindness of strangers -- who were told by the foster system that unless they felt like they were in imminent danger then they should stay far away. Do you really think that these kids are better off doing what they have to do (which many times is working under the table, or other illegal activity) to ensure their basic needs are met?
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  Which problem do you think cannot be solved with legislation that can be solved usefully by one-time application of money?
  - samstave 9y ago
    If legislation is the solution and money is a part of the problem, then why do lawyers charge so much freaking money?
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > If legislation is the solution and money is a part of the problem, then why do lawyers charge so much freaking money? Because there exists someone who is willing to pay that large amount of money for the service that the lawyer provides.
- rschneid 9y ago
  So invest in education ;)
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    There exist too many opinions about how education should be. If some philanthropist really does invest into how he/she believes education should be, there will be a large outcry, I bet.
    - samstave 9y ago
      Betsy DeVos comes to mind...
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > You can't legislate societies problems away. You obviously can if, for instance, the maintenance of the problem requires active government action; this would seem to generally be the case for large classes of social problems, most notably, all those involving the nature, assignment, and allocation of legal interests (e.g., claims to property.)
Gustomaximus 9y ago
> philantropic stuff needs to be long term to be of any use. Short term stuff can in fact be counter-productive by hiding that there is a problem I 100% understand what you saving and agree long term fixes are preferable, but... 1) Short term can be massively helpful for getting over humps like famine/disaster etc. 2) I kinda feel that is such privileged world thinking. If I'm buying some guys with nothing food and clothes, sure its not a long term solution but now they have food and clothes for a week. Pretty great for those guys. Imagine you were without shoes and clothes and some rich bloke was like "we dont think we should give you that as it might not help you generate food/clothes in the long term". Kinda politicians that believe we need to keep welfare low to encourage people to pull themselves up by their boot straps.
- dwighttk 9y ago
  Large scale short term programs can be very harmful though, e.g. Bezos shows up and gives everyone shoes and clothes, putting every shoe/clothing manufacturer (except the one he bought the shoes/clothes from) out of business, then when things have gotten better there's only one place to get shoes and clothes. This isn't going to stop me from helping out people I meet and see in need, but as a large scale program it is (at least long term) harmful.

dsfyu404ed 9y ago

You can't legislate societies problems away. Legislation is just bandaids applied with the threat of violence for those who seek to remove them.

Cozumel 9y ago
> 'You can't legislate societies problems away' Could you elaborate? It seems pretty obvious that you can. No child labour, minimum wage laws, equal rights etc.
- bobabooey02 9y ago
  The reason legislation like this isn't helping our country at the moment is because of globalization. Labor laws may help the workers, but it's a net negative if those laws just lead to the outsourcing of jobs. We need to choose between globalization for maximal gains for the rich, or protectionism for quality of life for our workers. At the moment, a middle ground doesn't seem possible.
  - matthewmacleod 9y ago
    Globalisation is fine where regulation can ensure that standards are still met. There is nothing that prevents domestic legislation setting standards for the working conditions of those who produce goods in foreign countries. Protectionism isn't going to help workers in the long term. We live in a global market; accepting that and using legislation to deal with negative outcomes is a totally valid approach. The fact that it hasn't been done is because of the large amount of money standing in the way of it.
    - bobabooey02 9y ago
      Theoretically this is true, but look at how it's worked in practice. Manufacturing was shipped to places like China and Mexico where the minimum wage and quality of life is much lower. When considering these things, should we consider the theory of globalization, or the reality of what is happening?
  - chris_t 9y ago
    I'd be interested in seeing proof that protectionism actually does benefit workers; I suspect the effect is mixed. Cheap goods from overseas often can help improve poorer people's standards of living, and it's not hard to see how protecting industries from more efficient competition overseas can benefit business owners.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      Part of the problem is that capital is more mobile than workers. You can send your factory bucks overseas a lot easier than a poor person can move to a country with a higher standard of living. We need to start asking the question of whether our legal systems should be friendly to capital at every opportunity.
  - GavinMcG 9y ago
    It's a little scary that you're advocating Americans compete by, say, doing away with child labor laws or safety standards. That's a disturbing enough view that you don't even want it linked to your primary HN account. There can absolutely be a middle ground. We can tax rent-seeking. We can quit the austerity focused trickle-down policies that have been shown to fail, and put money into the hands of people who will actually spend it. We can actively redistribute wealth. Why would you rather give up protections that cost our ancestors their lives to establish?
- chris_t 9y ago
  Government doesn't have unlimited power to alter reality, there are countless examples of legislation being ineffective or having unintended consequences. The canonical example is prohibition of various drugs, but more recently the "ban the box" initiative is quite illustrative: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/consequences-of-ban-the-box/494435/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/consequ...
  - txru 9y ago
    That article is somewhat confusing. > "I told her about my conviction, and she wanted me to go deeper into what happened,” he told me, describing one interview in particular. “When I explained that I shot somebody in the back of the head, she didn’t want anything to do with me anymore." ... And then they never go into that more. Why is that not an acceptable reason to not hire someone?
- nostrebored 9y ago
  All of these laws have pretty glaring problems though. Child labor combined with the emancipation system traps teenagers in abusive homes, minimum wage laws depend heavily on the elasticity of labor, equal rights laws seldom induce equality.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > Child labor combined with the emancipation system traps teenagers in abusive homes I don't understand what you mean here (I probably miss some background in US culture).
    - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
      The argument is that since a child can't work on their own and emancipation laws prevent a child from claiming independence until they can work on their own , children are stuck in abusive homes where they would otherwise work a full time job to get themselves out of the abuse. Note I don't really agree with this sentiment as abusing children is fairly illegal and it should be up to the justice system to prosecute the abusive households and also help the children find better homes, but we know that's inadequate in implementation right now.
      - nostrebored 9y ago
        It's not inadequate, it just doesn't happen. I know people who were being deprived of food, beaten, subjected to chronic verbal abuse, kicked out of their house, from the age of 12-13 who had absolutely no recourse, no ability to make money, and no real way to do anything besides depend on the kindness of strangers -- who were told by the foster system that unless they felt like they were in imminent danger then they should stay far away. Do you really think that these kids are better off doing what they have to do (which many times is working under the table, or other illegal activity) to ensure their basic needs are met?
Mithaldu 9y ago
Which problem do you think cannot be solved with legislation that can be solved usefully by one-time application of money?
- samstave 9y ago
  If legislation is the solution and money is a part of the problem, then why do lawyers charge so much freaking money?
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > If legislation is the solution and money is a part of the problem, then why do lawyers charge so much freaking money? Because there exists someone who is willing to pay that large amount of money for the service that the lawyer provides.
rschneid 9y ago
So invest in education ;)
- wolfgke 9y ago
  There exist too many opinions about how education should be. If some philanthropist really does invest into how he/she believes education should be, there will be a large outcry, I bet.
  - samstave 9y ago
    Betsy DeVos comes to mind...
dragonwriter 9y ago
> You can't legislate societies problems away. You obviously can if, for instance, the maintenance of the problem requires active government action; this would seem to generally be the case for large classes of social problems, most notably, all those involving the nature, assignment, and allocation of legal interests (e.g., claims to property.)

Gustomaximus 9y ago

> philantropic stuff needs to be long term to be of any use. Short term stuff can in fact be counter-productive by hiding that there is a problem I 100% understand what you saving and agree long term fixes are preferable, but... 1) Short term can be massively helpful for getting over humps like famine/disaster etc. 2) I kinda feel that is such privileged world thinking. If I'm buying some guys with nothing food and clothes, sure its not a long term solution but now they have food and clothes for a week. Pretty great for those guys. Imagine you were without shoes and clothes and some rich bloke was like "we dont think we should give you that as it might not help you generate food/clothes in the long term". Kinda politicians that believe we need to keep welfare low to encourage people to pull themselves up by their boot straps.

dwighttk 9y ago
Large scale short term programs can be very harmful though, e.g. Bezos shows up and gives everyone shoes and clothes, putting every shoe/clothing manufacturer (except the one he bought the shoes/clothes from) out of business, then when things have gotten better there's only one place to get shoes and clothes. This isn't going to stop me from helping out people I meet and see in need, but as a large scale program it is (at least long term) harmful.