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Masahiro Kikuno, Japanese Independent Watchmaker
- mc32 9y agoIt's great to see people like him and others like messersmiths such as Cut Brooklyn, swordsmakers, etc. continue the tradition of hand-made precision[1] products and doing it themselves rather than designing and then farming out the work to others or automating the process. It is, though, a kind of double edged sword. On the one hand they continue centuries-long traditions, on the other hand they get coöpted by hipsterish connoisseurs who work for companies feverishly contributing to the demise of traditional craft in the name of efficiency and doing things better. In addition, many of these products are not unnecessarily anachronistic (like say making an electronic device with discrete components and hand made pcbs). Bravo to these people. [1] By precision I mean they must follow a meticulous process to achieve near-perfection of result.
- keithpeter 9y agoThe watchmaker is selling his watches for between $45k and $250k and producing one a year on average so yes, he'll need rich customers. I suspect that there may be a different market in Japan though - perhaps older and more traditional people. Sooner or later he will need to take on an apprentice - it would be nice if he can start a school like that. You mentioned electronics, and the Japanese tradition of craftsmen making the whole thing brought to mind the slightly eccentric electronics of Susumu Sakuma. He (was?) making retro audio amplifiers on his kitchen table at one point. http://www10.big.or.jp/~dh/sakuma/index.html http://www10.big.or.jp/~dh/sakuma/index.html
- wowtip 9y agoThat is not that much of an income taking into the skill going into these watches. Wonder if he has to deal with much repairs and returns?
- keithpeter 9y agoI agree that the income is (relatively) modest compared to the training time and skill level involved. I suspect that the income could grow organically in the future with apprentices &c. I'd imagine a 'return' would be a trip to the chap's house and personal attention until the watch was working properly. My old hand-assembled clockwork camera (a mass produced item compared to the mechanisms in the OA) has worked faultlessly for around 15 years. And I bought it second hand then.
- Inconel 9y agoTo add to your comment, from what I know of the independent watch industry, it's exceedingly difficult to branch off on your own as a watchmaker and survive long term. Those apprentices need salaries after all. It seems to take not just incredible technical and artistic ability, but a knack for business and entrepreneurship as well. In addition, the independent watchmaking brands tend to have so much of their prestige wrapped up in their namesake's persona, rightfully so in my opinion, that it makes it difficult for them to survive once they are no longer able to lead the company. Also, I believe that even amongst the highest echelons of independent watchmakers, few are able to survive on their brand alone and rely heavily on either restoration work, work for larger more established brands, or a combination of the two. Even guys like Dufour and Voutilainen, two of the most respected independents in the watch world, partake in outside work for the big brands like Patek, VC, and AP. If anyone is interested this is a post on a fairly recent visit to Beat Haldimann's workshop[1]. One of my favorite articles on these kinds of visits is from 2006 and involves a visit to the home/atelier of a former French kickboxing champion turned watchmaker[2]. [1]http://www.watchprosite.com/independents/a-true-discovery-my-visit-to-beat-haldimann/16.1127286.8604221/ http://www.watchprosite.com/independents/a-true-discovery-my... [2]http://www.watchprosite.com/richard-mille/alone-with-the-rm008-/18.294986.1928928/ http://www.watchprosite.com/richard-mille/alone-with-the-rm0...
- keithpeter 9y agoLooking at link [1] I wonder if those huge street 'watches' are actually apprentice pieces? The large scale of the movement making them easier to make and, I presume, less susceptible to small errors in the making of the parts?
- fake-name 9y agoYay! Another site that renders as a white page with 3rd party javascript blocked. WTF, people?
- hgdsraj 9y agoIt's down. No need for the anti JavaScript task force here.
- philippnagel 9y agoProbably using Node.js. /s
- hemdawgz 9y agoI remember at some point on HN those sorts of comments were reasonably well-voted, and now they litter the bottom of any thread they appear in. I wonder when that changed.
- blhack 9y agoPardon the snark, but: it's no longer 2010. Javascript isn't an option anymore. I don't like this either, and I personally run a javascript blocker (which makes the internet much more enjoyable, imho), but I absolutely recognize that this is not the optimal way to view the internet. I also use react on all of my frontends.
- frou_dh 9y agoIn the context of aggregators such as HN/reddit, complaining about the design of the articles' sites is a form of bikeshedding.
- DanBC 9y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9236332#9238739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9236332#9238739 > A reader emailed to complain about how this and other HN discussions often become derailed by off-topic carping about blog design. I agree completely. Could there be a more classic form of bikeshedding? It would seem parodic if it weren't sadly real. This has become more of a thing on HN lately. It needs to become less of a thing. > I don't mean to pick on you personally, or just on this one comment. (Your second sentence alone, by the way, would have been a helpful contribution.) The problem is the tedious stampedes such comments spawn.
- sapphire_tomb 9y agoAnyone know if there's a mirror somewhere? Hackernews' "Eye of Sauron" affect seems to have nobbled the site.
- philippnagel 9y agoCached by Google: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_gUarOqUi-4J:watchesbysjx.com/2017/05/portrait-masahiro-kikuno-japanese-watchmaker.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=de http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_gUarOq....
- purpleidea 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect
- tpeo 9y agoIs that really a fitting metaphor, though? Because the Eye of Sauron never stopped anyone from going into Mordor or from going on with their own business. It just looked ominious. Whereas HN submissions actually crash the websites they're pointing to. I've only seen the movies (and read the wiki too), so I could be wrong.
- rsync 9y ago"Is that really a fitting metaphor, though?" A better metaphor would be "the HN LOIC"[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Orbit_Ion_Cannon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Orbit_Ion_Cannon
- webnrrd2k 9y agoI heard it called slashdotting for a while now... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot_effect
- coolswan 9y agoThis reminds me actually a lot of Jiro Ono (famed sushi-maker). "Once you decide on your occupation, you must immerse yourself in your work. You have to fall in love with your work. Never complain about your job. You must dedicate your life to mastering your skill. That's the secret of success and is the key to being regarded honorably."
- taway_1212 9y agoSounds a lot like he was forcing himself to do the work in order to succeed and to be "regarded honorably".
- jerrre 9y agoDo you interpret that as positive or negative?
- derefr 9y agoIt's a terminal preference that's alien to me, certainly. No more "good" or "bad" than the terminal preference a salmon has to swim upstream, fertilize eggs and die; it is what it is. Now, if the question is whether this really is his terminal preference, or whether he misunderstands his own deepest desires and might, under different conditions, have suffered a "mid-life crisis" realizing he hasn't satisfied his true goals after all... I can't really say. You'd have to ask him. Probably after getting him very drunk, because "has your life been a mistake" is not the type of thing you make small-talk about.
- jkaunisv1 9y agoI think the fact that he was on his own on the street at age 9 or thereabouts and had to find work to survive would probably play a big part. Even if he hated it to start, by the time he had the freedom of making the choice to do something else he was probably truly into it.
- taway_1212 9y ago
- zer00eyz 9y agoI love watchmakers, it is such a blend of skills that I don't even know where to begin with my praise or interest in the field. I just want to throw out there that Dan Spitz, of Anthrax fame makes watches as well, and has an interesting story too. https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/interview-meet-dan-spitz-anthrax-guitarist-turned-master-watchmaker https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/interview-meet-dan-spitz-a...
- nvarsj 9y agoWow this is incredibly cool. I also found that he produces his own benches for watchmakers and other tinkerers. Looks really great: http://danspitz.com/watchmaker_bench/ http://danspitz.com/watchmaker_bench/
- BatFastard 9y agoThose are really wonderful benches.
- mhb 9y agoPrevious discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7862092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7862092
- monk_e_boy 9y agoWell... that's the first I've every heard of seasonal time. That's amazing. http://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/wadokei/huteijihou/index.html http://museum.seiko.co.jp/en/knowledge/wadokei/huteijihou/in...
- keithpeter 9y agoUnequal hours were normal in the era of astrolabes... "It should also be noted that in the middle ages the time of day was usually expressed as the part of the day or night that had passed. That is, sunrise was the beginning of the 1st hour of the day, noon was the end of the 6th hour and sunset was the end of the 12th hour of the day and the beginning of the 1st hour of the night. The length of the hour changed during the year with the amount of change depending on the latitude."[1] It was the advent of mechanical clocks that regularised the hours. The difference was less the nearer to the equator your city was as well. [1] https://www.astrolabes.org/pages/uses.htm https://www.astrolabes.org/pages/uses.htm
- pm215 9y agoIf you like that kind of thing and happen to be visiting Tokyo, the Daimyo Clock Museum is worth dropping into. It's a little one-room museum with a couple of dozen old clocks that implement that variable-hours setup, some of them running.
- robert_tweed 9y agoI see he has a copy of "Watchmaking" by George Daniels. That is the "Knuth" of watchmaking. Here in Britain, we have Roger W Smith, the only watchmaker in the world who makes everything by hand. He was the principal disciple of George Daniels, a truly legendary watchmaker, who sadly died a few years ago. Daniels famously taught himself watchmaking by taking apart old clocks, putting them back together and repairing them when he was young. If he had been born in the digital age, he'd have been a hacker comparable to Woz. He didn't just make his own watches, he also made all the specialised tools needed. These days he is perhaps best known for the Daniels Co-Axial Escapement found in some Omega watches, which for many years was believed to be impossible to make. If you google Roger Smith, he has lots of interesting videos on Youtube showing various parts of the watchmaking process from raw materials. There are a few interviews with George Daniels too. Here's one talking about his first complete, from scratch watch: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CSeTi93f2eU https://youtube.com/watch?v=CSeTi93f2eU
- Inconel 9y agoI'm going to echo your sentiments regarding "Watchmaking" by George Daniels[1]. Anyone even remotely interested in watchmaking should order that book immediately. I hate to be overly pedantic, this is HN after all, but Roger Smith still gets mainsprings, balances, sapphire crystals, and screws from outside sources. This of course does nothing to take away from his timepieces. [1]https://www.amazon.com/Watchmaking-George-Daniels/dp/0856677043 https://www.amazon.com/Watchmaking-George-Daniels/dp/0856677...
- robert_tweed 9y ago> Roger Smith still gets mainsprings, balances, sapphire crystals, and screws from outside sources. I wasn't 100% sure about that and knew someone would point out if I was in error. I also want to be clear that my comment should not detract from the work of Masahiro Kikuno either, which looks incredible. Whether there are one or two people in the world doing this makes little difference to what an achievement it is. Also Roger Smith now has a fairly large workshop with apprentices doing some of the work for him. He's no longer one man working in his spare room, although that is how he started. In fact, when he first approached George Daniels about becoming an apprentice, Daniels told him to make a watch by himself and he'd appraise it first. So he did. Daniels told him it wasn't very good and made him do it again. So he did. After that, Daniels gave in.
- thjan 9y agoSince so many knowledgeable people interested in watches are around here ... What are some affordable, good quality watch brands? Somewhere around 100 to 300 Euro maybe? I like those beautiful, elegant designed watches but 10k EUR upwards is way out of my league.
- wickawic 9y agoSeiko and Orient have lots of nice mechanical watches in that price range.
- dmreedy 9y agoto recite the rest of that refrain, Orient in particular is worth a look because they not only make some lovely stuff, but all of their movements are manufactured in-house.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Thaxll 9y agoIndeed :) http://www.orient-watch.com/products/category/item/?category_id=39 http://www.orient-watch.com/products/category/item/?category...
- tyingq 9y agoI am not an expert, so I can't vouch for build quality, but skagen.com watches are my favorite in the low end of your price range. Mostly because of the look. They have styles that are different, without being oversized, gaudy, or obvious knockoffs of expensive brands. The thin titanium ones are understated and nice looking to me.
- qarioz 9y agoIf you want automatic you can't go wrong with Seiko low end such as Seiko 5 series. Some even rated for diving. If you value accuracy as in quartz, can't go wrong with g shock. Basically known for it's toughness.
- syntaxing 9y agoDoes anyone know what milling machine he has? It has such a weird collet holder and spindle.
- blackguardx 9y agoLooks to be a clone of a Deckel G1L. I think it is pitched as an engraving machine that can also so light milling. The pantograph allows it to make complex parts by tracing a scaled template with a stylus. This is how they made complex curves before CNC and is probably faster for certain on-off parts if you include CAD and CAM time.
- syntaxing 9y agoThat is super awesome. I can't believe I never heard of a pantograph milling machine before. Thank you for the info!
- blackguardx 9y agoIf you want to see one in action, I suggest checking out Stefan Gotteswinter's channel on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl https://www.youtube.com/user/syyl
- BatFastard 9y agoPermanence - One of the beautiful things about these watches is they will be treasures for hundreds of years. I serious doubt anyone will look back at my code in one hundred years and be amazed by the beauty. Not that it is not beautiful, software just doesn't feel like it has any lasting permanence. You can create amazing things with software but does any implementation actually have permanence?
- volkk 9y agoi've read that the original Doom code is essentially a work of art, no? (a bit different with regards to watchmaking in terms of art, of course)
- BatFastard 9y agoThat may well be true, but how many people can appreciate it? Too really appreciate it you would have had to be making 3D engines in the early 90's. Since otherwise its hard to appreciate the limitations Carmake overcame. I happen to know a guy who was doing just that, and he can twiddle bits like no other, but his style is stuck in 1992.
- simonsarris 9y agoWell, does bread? https://www.instagram.com/sourdough_nouveau/ https://www.instagram.com/sourdough_nouveau/ Not everything beautiful need be permanent. Some of it can last just one morning. (In Tibetan Buddhism, there is also the Sand Mandala that epitomizes this) There's a beauty to lasting treasure, but there's a beauty to ephemeral treasure too, I think. Something crafted with ultimate care to be shared and consumed immediately.
- BatFastard 9y agoThere is beauty in transitory experiences too most certainly! The unseen rainbow has beauty, but as a human I like to think I am more than a blink of a cosmic eye. Even though I know I am not....
- BatFastard 9y ago
- sshanky 9y agoI can't discern from the article whether or not he actually makes movements. It says that "The hairspring, mainspring, jewels, crystal and leather strap are bought from suppliers, primarily Seiko subsidiaries." However, I imagine he buys entire movements and concentrates on the case, face, hands, and other aesthetic elements.
- cr0sh 9y ago> However, I imagine he buys entire movements and concentrates on the case, face, hands, and other aesthetic elements. I'm not so certain about that; the article mentions his making a wristwatch (and pocket watch) version of a traditional Japanese clock which varies the length of a day by the seasons. Such timepieces (as clocks) fell out after the Meiji restoration (according to the article) when Japan transitioned to western style clocks. Given that, unless Seiko (or some other company) is also making movements for traditional Japanese timekeeping, I can't imagine your scenario being true, simply because the market for traditional Japanese timekeeping watches would have to be pretty damn small, as they are virtually useless for practical use in the modern world, and only would serve as curiosities and/or art. Just my opinion based only on the article, though - I could be completely wrong.
- watchesbysjx 9y agoHi, I am the author of the original article. Kikuno-san makes all of the watch, except for the hairspring, mainspring, jewels, crystal and leather strap. His dedication to the craft is remarkably complete.
- somecallitblues 9y agoAlthough they're quite kitsch and not something I'd wear, good on him for taking on something not many people would dare these days.
- Strategizer 9y agoCrazy, cool and complex stuff. Those pieces belong in a museum...or on my wrist. Double kudos for the Pentax and the truly amazing 100mm f2.8 macro lens he uses. I have it and it's fantastic.
- ValleyOfTheMtns 9y agoDoes he have an Etsy shop?
- Bakary 9y agoWhat a fascinating man. I'm slowly starting to fantasize about having a job where I can create actual objects myself and my work has a tangible effect rather than some zero-sum value shuffling.
- soapdog 9y agoSo, how do one goes to learn watchmaking? I know there are some really impressive and traditional schools and that apprenticeship still going on but besides the George Daniels book, is there a friendlier and more approachable book for hobbyists? Can someone recommend some pointers?