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The U.S. should be doing their very best to have the strongest possible education system for all its citizens (and non-citizens living in the country long term)

The U.S. should be doing their very best to have the strongest possible education system for all its citizens (and non-citizens living in the country long term). As should any reasonable country. But the fact remains that, unless you are counting with excellent execution in that regard from the U.S. and abysmal negligence from the rest of the world, you simply can't extract the same talent from a population of 400 million than from one of 7 billion. The U.S. benefits enormously from immigration, in ways many don't even perceive. If the flow of minds into the country is ever truly stopped, no amount of improvement in the internal education pipeline will be enough to maintain the U.S. dominant position in science and technology. Now, you might be ok with a broader geographical distribution of this type of talent, or argue that it will happen eventually no matter what. I hear you, on both counts. But, as a non-U.S. citizen, I am actually pretty surprised that the country would chose to forgo the advantage it enjoys by being a preferred immigration destination for so many skilled people... It also seems to be done due to nothing but rank xenophobia. I mean, what is the excuse here? "They are stealing our jobs!"? This is literally a visa where the requirement is to create jobs for American citizens, and most of these tech firms will do so by exporting goods mostly to foreign markets (the market for most tech startups is not over 50% local to the U.S.) and/or creating local technology and expertise. Hell, once profitable, you can and should tax these companies to help provide for that very same education you want for American citizens! As well as UBI for those whose jobs are being displaced by automation. Startup visas are as win-win as it possibly gets. Final point: The party and particular administration that seems to be most against immigration also seems to be the one most against science or robust public education. The foreseeable end result is grim, even if these policies last only 4 years: a "lost half-decade" in which the best domestic talent is under-nourished and the best foreign talent goes elsewhere.

nnfy 9y ago
Our domestic talent pool has been decades on the decline for lack of support, uncorrelated with which side of the party aisle the current administration has been.
KGIII 9y ago
The complaints that I read are often that they aren't actually jobs that couldn't be fulfilled here, with local talent. There have been many claims of training your replacement. If you're training them, it seems most probable that you're able to do the job. There is only a small subset that seems to just be bigoted. And, yes, they do exist. I am pretty sure they are low in number. Most of the complaints are about things like body shops but there have even been complaints involving Disney. Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can train your replacement, we probably didn't need a replacement. It's not like they move them up the ladder. They lay them off and pay the people with visas very little money, comparatively. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think, if true, they have a legitimate complaint. Most of them seem to agree that it should be bringing in experts and not lower paid people that need to be trained by the people they are replacing. So, what do you think? Would you agree that there are legitimate concerns? Many of these complaints do not, to me, appear xenophobic or racist.
- rtpg 9y ago
  You know what can solve most of the issues? Better worker protections. Stopping immigration doesn't stop you from having to train your replacement, they'll just be American instead. Making companies have to treat their workers with a bit of civility will solve a lot of problems.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    Alright, I can agree with that. How do you propose doing so, in this specific political climate?
    - intended 9y ago
      You change the environment. Be clear - this rhetoric, which is so naively being echoed here on HN, of all places, is based on assumptions of a world which does not exist. In this specific case, and depth in the comment tree, there have been 2 incorrect assertions made, the clarification of which leads to the truth. The first is - maybe now america will invest in its own talent the second is - many times people are being told to train their own replacement The issue is that job distribution is bi-modal in tech. Theres a cluster at the very high end (jobs as a google scientist), and theres a cluster at the lower end (guys maintaining web pages). The talent people compete for around the world is for the top end of the curve - and america has been sucking these people away from their home country for ages. Furthermore - I have seen American talent in American colleges, you do a very good job of converting people into smart people. This process has only recently been corrupted because of the poor job scenario for the lower and middle ends of the job curve. But its still damn good. Closing those doors, after the rank xenophobia being displayed by the Administration means you lose out on the part of the curve you want to be competitive on.
xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
Are we really extracting from a talent pool of 7 billion? The problems we have in America are the same if not much worse in most of the world (except for Europe, I imagine). What % of children in China and India do not have access to decent education or opportunities? I think it's pretty high. My thought process was inspired by the recent article on the estimated 5 million geniuses in India, most of which will go on to lead lives in poverty.
- nopinsight 9y ago
  Immigrants do not just bring their intellect. The imaginative capacity, courage, and tenacity required to move across countries and often continents are very helpful for developing new ventures and technologies. The 5 million number is vastly exaggerated if you go for a real meaning of the word 'genius'. For example, Einstein's IQ is reportedly 160 and assuming normal distribution that is about 1 in 32,000. Even if everyone in India receives the same opportunities as Einstein did from their childhood, the number would be 1.34 billion/32,000 = 42,000. Not to mention that IQ alone is far from adequate. Imagination, persistence, and courage are required for intellectual distinction. That's why there are so few accomplished geniuses in the world.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lazaroclapp 9y ago
  > Are we really extracting from a talent pool of 7 billion? No. Or rather we are doing it badly. But we don't do any better if we geographically segregate people who otherwise might want to work together. It is an orthogonal (albeit incredibly important) problem. As I said, all of our countries should be investing more in education, in addition to having humane and sensible immigration policies and a reasonable social safety net. But in any case, there are more skilled people in the whole world right now than in the U.S. alone, by construction...

nnfy 9y ago

Our domestic talent pool has been decades on the decline for lack of support, uncorrelated with which side of the party aisle the current administration has been.

KGIII 9y ago

The complaints that I read are often that they aren't actually jobs that couldn't be fulfilled here, with local talent. There have been many claims of training your replacement. If you're training them, it seems most probable that you're able to do the job. There is only a small subset that seems to just be bigoted. And, yes, they do exist. I am pretty sure they are low in number. Most of the complaints are about things like body shops but there have even been complaints involving Disney. Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can train your replacement, we probably didn't need a replacement. It's not like they move them up the ladder. They lay them off and pay the people with visas very little money, comparatively. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think, if true, they have a legitimate complaint. Most of them seem to agree that it should be bringing in experts and not lower paid people that need to be trained by the people they are replacing. So, what do you think? Would you agree that there are legitimate concerns? Many of these complaints do not, to me, appear xenophobic or racist.

rtpg 9y ago
You know what can solve most of the issues? Better worker protections. Stopping immigration doesn't stop you from having to train your replacement, they'll just be American instead. Making companies have to treat their workers with a bit of civility will solve a lot of problems.
- KGIII 9y ago
  Alright, I can agree with that. How do you propose doing so, in this specific political climate?
  - intended 9y ago
    You change the environment. Be clear - this rhetoric, which is so naively being echoed here on HN, of all places, is based on assumptions of a world which does not exist. In this specific case, and depth in the comment tree, there have been 2 incorrect assertions made, the clarification of which leads to the truth. The first is - maybe now america will invest in its own talent the second is - many times people are being told to train their own replacement The issue is that job distribution is bi-modal in tech. Theres a cluster at the very high end (jobs as a google scientist), and theres a cluster at the lower end (guys maintaining web pages). The talent people compete for around the world is for the top end of the curve - and america has been sucking these people away from their home country for ages. Furthermore - I have seen American talent in American colleges, you do a very good job of converting people into smart people. This process has only recently been corrupted because of the poor job scenario for the lower and middle ends of the job curve. But its still damn good. Closing those doors, after the rank xenophobia being displayed by the Administration means you lose out on the part of the curve you want to be competitive on.

xxSparkleSxx 9y ago

Are we really extracting from a talent pool of 7 billion? The problems we have in America are the same if not much worse in most of the world (except for Europe, I imagine). What % of children in China and India do not have access to decent education or opportunities? I think it's pretty high. My thought process was inspired by the recent article on the estimated 5 million geniuses in India, most of which will go on to lead lives in poverty.

nopinsight 9y ago
Immigrants do not just bring their intellect. The imaginative capacity, courage, and tenacity required to move across countries and often continents are very helpful for developing new ventures and technologies. The 5 million number is vastly exaggerated if you go for a real meaning of the word 'genius'. For example, Einstein's IQ is reportedly 160 and assuming normal distribution that is about 1 in 32,000. Even if everyone in India receives the same opportunities as Einstein did from their childhood, the number would be 1.34 billion/32,000 = 42,000. Not to mention that IQ alone is far from adequate. Imagination, persistence, and courage are required for intellectual distinction. That's why there are so few accomplished geniuses in the world.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
lazaroclapp 9y ago
> Are we really extracting from a talent pool of 7 billion? No. Or rather we are doing it badly. But we don't do any better if we geographically segregate people who otherwise might want to work together. It is an orthogonal (albeit incredibly important) problem. As I said, all of our countries should be investing more in education, in addition to having humane and sensible immigration policies and a reasonable social safety net. But in any case, there are more skilled people in the whole world right now than in the U.S. alone, by construction...