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From the article: "To qualify for the rule, entrepreneurs would have to meet high standards. A foreigner must demonstrate that he or she will contribute to eco

From the article: "To qualify for the rule, entrepreneurs would have to meet high standards. A foreigner must demonstrate that he or she will contribute to economic growth or job creation and show that a reputable investor has put at least $250,000 into the company. Under this rule, they can stay in the U.S. for 30 months, with the possibility of a 30-month extension. They cannot apply for a green card during this period." This sounds like a pretty lame visa. How are you supposed to build a startup if you only have 30 months to do so? Why would investors risk $250k if the founder may be deported in 30 months? What happens after the extension period? I'm 100% in favor of increasing all immigration to the USA, but this visa doesn't sound like a good option at all. Is the USA really so appealing that talented entrepreneurs will jump through this many hoops to start their company here?

justboxing 9y ago
> They cannot apply for a green card during this period This will be a deal-breaker for over 95% of the applicants. Even though the H1B Visa is a non-immigrant visa, there was no such clause attached to it like this one. It's what enables 1000s of immigrants (like me) every year to first arrive on a non-immigrant visa and then get the employer to petition their green cards for permanent stay or eventually citizenship. I personally know many immigrants who didn't really want to become citizens and intended to go back to their home country in 5 to 10 years timeframe, but applied for and obtained permanent residency (green card) just so that this uncertainty of resident status is eliminated. Take that (the green card) away, why would any entrepreneur be incentivized to apply for this Visa? Because 2 or 3 * years is a very short time frame to create and run a successful startup. Why would any entrepreneur risk coming here on a temporary stay only to be banished just as the startup takes off? * 3 = Number of years Kevin O'Leary (Shark Tank) says you give your startup to turn profitable before taking it to the back of the Barn and shooting it.
- xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
  Damn. We might actually have to start investing equally in US children of all socioeconomic classes to ensure we have enough entrepreneurs and bright minds to compete in the global economy. EDIT: WOW, didn't think such an obvious comment would be so controversial (points are swinging up and down cyclically). Do ya'll think we are extremely efficient at turning potential into value from all of our current citizens? Do you NOT want to do anything but fail if Trump severely fucks up immigration and our economy? Or does it hurt your feelings to think that everything you've achieved in life wasn't 100% through your own hard work? I'm confused.
  - mtanski 9y ago
    Unlikely to happen. based on both, our history of good intentions and poor execution, and the current secretary of education who's working on funneling more folks into religious schools.
  - sundvor 9y ago
    That's a solid upvote from me. But then again I had the good luck to be born in Norway, a country where education, health care and all is truly an equal opportunity (ie disregarding family wealth) prospect.
  - landryraccoon 9y ago
    Who's "We"? From the context it seems clear you must be talking about US citizens and not non-American HN readers, but aside from that it's not clear. Do you mean Donald Trump, the US Federal Government, individual states, parents of children, or someone else?
  - meetri 9y ago
    I don't see a problem with this. Growing up poor and being an african american, if I wasn't a self taught software engineer, I would probably be in jail or dead with the rest of my siblings. Growing up poor and having to attend local schools are a complete utter joke in this country. Only thing they prepare us for is gangs and jail. Looks like a lot would have to be done for this to change. And given what's going in trump's america, i doubt things will ever change. :(
    - nnfy 9y ago
      I'm sure you had it worse, but public schools in non poor areas are pretty shitty too, unless you are in honors/ap courses. And this problem with our schools existed long before trump, and not to sound conspiritorial, but the both GOP and neoliberals like Hillary both seem to have interests in keeping public schools underperforming. And it isn't a funding problem, either. We spend more per capita on education than most, if not all, other countries.
      - 9y ago
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  This visa is basically a slightly easier version of the existing E2 treaty visa. The E2 visa is a non immigration visa and you must demonstrate your intent to not immigrate to the United States. Given this, the non immigration tenet of this startup visa is a non-issue.
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  Nothing personal, but we don't need you here as much as you've been led to believe we do. H1B is white collar union busting, making Americans who have invested deeply in their skill set and education accept less compensation than they were promised when they took those student loans.
  - justboxing 9y ago
    > Nothing personal, but we don't need you here as much as you've been led to believe we do. A vast majority of us (H1B visa applicants and holders) don't believe we are special or that there is a severe shortage of skilled tech workers. Most of us were/are aware that this Visa is abused and it's just a way for Companies in both countries to hire cheap labor and exploit us. Just that it's the easiest LEGAL way for educated engineers to arrive at -- and later immigrate into -- the United States. When I came on the H1b visa, I was making 40% less than my American co-worker (we dated briefly, that's how I came to know of her compensation) for the same exact Job Title, Job Description and Primary Job Duties. My Indian "bodyshopper" (that's what the companies that petition H1bs are called in India) refused to give me a raise for 2 years, despite my American manager raving about my performance and telling them to keep me "happy". Because the other "caveat" with the employer-based immigration in the United States is that if you lose your job, then your Green Card / Permanent residency application goes back to the very beginning with your new employer. So you can potentially lose years of time on the green card processing if you 1) get laid off or 2) you get fired. Everybody knows this, so they kept us suppressed on the low wages. It's a sort of rite-of-passage. Every Indian, Pakistani and Chinese immigrant I know has gone through this.
- baby 9y ago
  > This will be a deal-breaker for over 95% of the applicants. Even though the H1B Visa is a non-immigrant visa, there was no such clause attached to it like this one. Except you have 20% chance of getting the H1B when applying.
Warvick 9y ago
I only wondered why US will not open up to the countries, that are known for being safe, with well educated and easy to integrate citizens. US is opening its borders to rich countries instead of opening to safe bets to grab some tech talent. There are numerous countries that fit this profile. The majority of Central/Eastern Europe, few Asian and South American countries, even with Africa having some. Instead, they expect for people from developed countries go through the nightmare of getting a visa, being screened and then live in places like Cali where cost of living is ridiculous. US could easily give out 1 Mil easy-to-get visas with easy-to-get transition program to a green card that would bump their economy, instead, they are creating walls everywhere.
- dmoy 9y ago
  When you say 1 Mil easy-to-get, do you mean visas that cost $1M (those exist), or 1 million count of visas?
  - Warvick 9y ago
    The latter. Visas could cost something, to create an added value, like $10K to filter out some people.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  Because "losing jobs to foreigners" is a political nightmare, especially to the current administration, whose base cares for something like that.
  - geon 9y ago
    I can't understand that rethoric. You get a new consumer as well, so you have merely increased the population.
    - neuronexmachina 9y ago
      The belief that economics is a zero-sum game is sadly quite prevalent.
escapetech 9y ago
Donny boy should spend more time seeking advice from foreign leaders and less time pushing and arm-wrestling them, one them being French president, who apparently "gets it" when it comes to the role of government in technology and innovation. France's visa programmes for tech workers and startup founders were launched this year. http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/ http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/
- seizethecheese 9y ago
  > Donny boy should spend more time seeking advice from foreign leaders and less time pushing and arm-wrestling them This statement's only value is political, and is irrelevant when it comes to the issue being discussed.
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    You should consider the political aspect. Why should anyone rely on anything the government promises, if the next government will likely just scrap it?
    - escapetech 9y ago
      The so-called political aspect very relevant, after all it's policy being discussed. The French tech visa programme remedies the problems with US tech visa that the OP listed, raising the possibility that Macron at least understands the role of government in innovation and technology conducive to attracting talent. Trump is simply clueless and willingly so about these matters, even when surrounded by advisers. Yet mentioning this is "political" (euphemism for "I'm offended").
muninn_ 9y ago
> I'm 100% in favor of increasing all immigration to the USA Why? What's wrong with the current level?
- atomi 9y ago
  China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people. We need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower. It's incredible what is happening. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/
  - 4msonny 9y ago
    We do not necessarily need the best to "come" here from somewhere else, we just need to (again) invest in our own children (like China?) to make sure we remain the best and the most powerful.
  - hyperdunc 9y ago
    When so many people live in one country, the value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible. Do you think very high population density is more or less healthy for the individual? What about the effect on the environment? What happens once the US has 1.4 billion people and global birth rates have stabilized so there is no one else to bring in? Maintaining economic growth may be important but it is only one consideration. Bringing in the best foreign workers is a somewhat easy and temporary fix, which dissuades the US from investing in its own citizens. How many citizens who are down and out would actually be able to contribute a whole lot more? Is the onus solely on them to compete with already educated foreigners? It would be more less selfish and more sustainable to concentrate on nurturing a national culture of intellect, learning, creativity, entrepreneurship and cohesion within the US rather than supplementing our deficiencies with the best of other countries.
    - noway421 9y ago
      > value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible Usually negligible because we have data only for developing countries. There's still no case of a developed nation with 1b+ population.
mmagin 9y ago
I wonder what the cost of the government bureaucracy which evaluates that criteria will be.
bitL 9y ago
You don't need to be present in the US to run a company there (LLC, C-Corp), so frankly I am not sure it would be a big deal.
ojbyrne 9y ago
I am going to guess that there is some way to transition to an immigrant visa like an O-1 or H-1B. There are many Canadians in the US on a non-immigrant visa (TN1) then switching to an immigrant visa later on. This was my path to a green card.
Iv 9y ago
> Is the USA really so appealing that talented entrepreneurs will jump through this many hoops to start their company here? As a French cofounder of a small startup: no. We are looking at making a structure in Canada in order to hunt US money. We assume that immigration in the US will be a nightmare and we have tons of other problems to solve. European funds and Chinese investors are also interested in our tech. Actually, we should explore if US talents are not willing to move out, to France or Canada instead.
angryteabag 9y ago
I'm a New Zealander and have been trying to relocate to the states for many years. It basically comes down to finding someone to marry me while I am there on my 3 month visiting visa. Problem is, it's hard enough finding someone to hold my hand in NZ, let alone marriage in another country. I had high hopes that Clinton would win and I'd have my dream realised. I guess, it was never meant to be.
delinka 9y ago
> Why would investors risk $250k if the founder may be deported in 30 months? Presumably, the investor has invested in a corporate entity organized in the United States and that the money has been used to pay employees such that there's some kind of structure that continues to exist in the U.S. with or without the founder. If you're the investor, and you're just writing a check to a guy who flew in with a startup visa and nothing else, then I, a U.S. Citizen, have quite a few startup ideas I'd like to discuss with you.

justboxing 9y ago

> They cannot apply for a green card during this period This will be a deal-breaker for over 95% of the applicants. Even though the H1B Visa is a non-immigrant visa, there was no such clause attached to it like this one. It's what enables 1000s of immigrants (like me) every year to first arrive on a non-immigrant visa and then get the employer to petition their green cards for permanent stay or eventually citizenship. I personally know many immigrants who didn't really want to become citizens and intended to go back to their home country in 5 to 10 years timeframe, but applied for and obtained permanent residency (green card) just so that this uncertainty of resident status is eliminated. Take that (the green card) away, why would any entrepreneur be incentivized to apply for this Visa? Because 2 or 3 * years is a very short time frame to create and run a successful startup. Why would any entrepreneur risk coming here on a temporary stay only to be banished just as the startup takes off? * 3 = Number of years Kevin O'Leary (Shark Tank) says you give your startup to turn profitable before taking it to the back of the Barn and shooting it.

xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
Damn. We might actually have to start investing equally in US children of all socioeconomic classes to ensure we have enough entrepreneurs and bright minds to compete in the global economy. EDIT: WOW, didn't think such an obvious comment would be so controversial (points are swinging up and down cyclically). Do ya'll think we are extremely efficient at turning potential into value from all of our current citizens? Do you NOT want to do anything but fail if Trump severely fucks up immigration and our economy? Or does it hurt your feelings to think that everything you've achieved in life wasn't 100% through your own hard work? I'm confused.
- mtanski 9y ago
  Unlikely to happen. based on both, our history of good intentions and poor execution, and the current secretary of education who's working on funneling more folks into religious schools.
- sundvor 9y ago
  That's a solid upvote from me. But then again I had the good luck to be born in Norway, a country where education, health care and all is truly an equal opportunity (ie disregarding family wealth) prospect.
- landryraccoon 9y ago
  Who's "We"? From the context it seems clear you must be talking about US citizens and not non-American HN readers, but aside from that it's not clear. Do you mean Donald Trump, the US Federal Government, individual states, parents of children, or someone else?
- meetri 9y ago
  I don't see a problem with this. Growing up poor and being an african american, if I wasn't a self taught software engineer, I would probably be in jail or dead with the rest of my siblings. Growing up poor and having to attend local schools are a complete utter joke in this country. Only thing they prepare us for is gangs and jail. Looks like a lot would have to be done for this to change. And given what's going in trump's america, i doubt things will ever change. :(
  - nnfy 9y ago
    I'm sure you had it worse, but public schools in non poor areas are pretty shitty too, unless you are in honors/ap courses. And this problem with our schools existed long before trump, and not to sound conspiritorial, but the both GOP and neoliberals like Hillary both seem to have interests in keeping public schools underperforming. And it isn't a funding problem, either. We spend more per capita on education than most, if not all, other countries.
    - 9y ago
hkmurakami 9y ago
This visa is basically a slightly easier version of the existing E2 treaty visa. The E2 visa is a non immigration visa and you must demonstrate your intent to not immigrate to the United States. Given this, the non immigration tenet of this startup visa is a non-issue.
CodeWriter23 9y ago
Nothing personal, but we don't need you here as much as you've been led to believe we do. H1B is white collar union busting, making Americans who have invested deeply in their skill set and education accept less compensation than they were promised when they took those student loans.
- justboxing 9y ago
  > Nothing personal, but we don't need you here as much as you've been led to believe we do. A vast majority of us (H1B visa applicants and holders) don't believe we are special or that there is a severe shortage of skilled tech workers. Most of us were/are aware that this Visa is abused and it's just a way for Companies in both countries to hire cheap labor and exploit us. Just that it's the easiest LEGAL way for educated engineers to arrive at -- and later immigrate into -- the United States. When I came on the H1b visa, I was making 40% less than my American co-worker (we dated briefly, that's how I came to know of her compensation) for the same exact Job Title, Job Description and Primary Job Duties. My Indian "bodyshopper" (that's what the companies that petition H1bs are called in India) refused to give me a raise for 2 years, despite my American manager raving about my performance and telling them to keep me "happy". Because the other "caveat" with the employer-based immigration in the United States is that if you lose your job, then your Green Card / Permanent residency application goes back to the very beginning with your new employer. So you can potentially lose years of time on the green card processing if you 1) get laid off or 2) you get fired. Everybody knows this, so they kept us suppressed on the low wages. It's a sort of rite-of-passage. Every Indian, Pakistani and Chinese immigrant I know has gone through this.
baby 9y ago
> This will be a deal-breaker for over 95% of the applicants. Even though the H1B Visa is a non-immigrant visa, there was no such clause attached to it like this one. Except you have 20% chance of getting the H1B when applying.

Warvick 9y ago

I only wondered why US will not open up to the countries, that are known for being safe, with well educated and easy to integrate citizens. US is opening its borders to rich countries instead of opening to safe bets to grab some tech talent. There are numerous countries that fit this profile. The majority of Central/Eastern Europe, few Asian and South American countries, even with Africa having some. Instead, they expect for people from developed countries go through the nightmare of getting a visa, being screened and then live in places like Cali where cost of living is ridiculous. US could easily give out 1 Mil easy-to-get visas with easy-to-get transition program to a green card that would bump their economy, instead, they are creating walls everywhere.

dmoy 9y ago
When you say 1 Mil easy-to-get, do you mean visas that cost $1M (those exist), or 1 million count of visas?
- Warvick 9y ago
  The latter. Visas could cost something, to create an added value, like $10K to filter out some people.
pilsetnieks 9y ago
Because "losing jobs to foreigners" is a political nightmare, especially to the current administration, whose base cares for something like that.
- geon 9y ago
  I can't understand that rethoric. You get a new consumer as well, so you have merely increased the population.
  - neuronexmachina 9y ago
    The belief that economics is a zero-sum game is sadly quite prevalent.

escapetech 9y ago

Donny boy should spend more time seeking advice from foreign leaders and less time pushing and arm-wrestling them, one them being French president, who apparently "gets it" when it comes to the role of government in technology and innovation. France's visa programmes for tech workers and startup founders were launched this year. http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/ http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/

seizethecheese 9y ago
> Donny boy should spend more time seeking advice from foreign leaders and less time pushing and arm-wrestling them This statement's only value is political, and is irrelevant when it comes to the issue being discussed.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  You should consider the political aspect. Why should anyone rely on anything the government promises, if the next government will likely just scrap it?
  - escapetech 9y ago
    The so-called political aspect very relevant, after all it's policy being discussed. The French tech visa programme remedies the problems with US tech visa that the OP listed, raising the possibility that Macron at least understands the role of government in innovation and technology conducive to attracting talent. Trump is simply clueless and willingly so about these matters, even when surrounded by advisers. Yet mentioning this is "political" (euphemism for "I'm offended").

muninn_ 9y ago

> I'm 100% in favor of increasing all immigration to the USA Why? What's wrong with the current level?

atomi 9y ago
China is of comparable size to the US and has a population of nearly 1.4 billion people. We need the best here if we plan on staying a global superpower. It's incredible what is happening. It's like watching a slow moving train wreck and there is nothing we can do to stop it. :/
- 4msonny 9y ago
  We do not necessarily need the best to "come" here from somewhere else, we just need to (again) invest in our own children (like China?) to make sure we remain the best and the most powerful.
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  When so many people live in one country, the value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible. Do you think very high population density is more or less healthy for the individual? What about the effect on the environment? What happens once the US has 1.4 billion people and global birth rates have stabilized so there is no one else to bring in? Maintaining economic growth may be important but it is only one consideration. Bringing in the best foreign workers is a somewhat easy and temporary fix, which dissuades the US from investing in its own citizens. How many citizens who are down and out would actually be able to contribute a whole lot more? Is the onus solely on them to compete with already educated foreigners? It would be more less selfish and more sustainable to concentrate on nurturing a national culture of intellect, learning, creativity, entrepreneurship and cohesion within the US rather than supplementing our deficiencies with the best of other countries.
  - noway421 9y ago
    > value of the average individual to the country as a whole is usually negligible Usually negligible because we have data only for developing countries. There's still no case of a developed nation with 1b+ population.

mmagin 9y ago

I wonder what the cost of the government bureaucracy which evaluates that criteria will be.

bitL 9y ago

You don't need to be present in the US to run a company there (LLC, C-Corp), so frankly I am not sure it would be a big deal.

ojbyrne 9y ago

I am going to guess that there is some way to transition to an immigrant visa like an O-1 or H-1B. There are many Canadians in the US on a non-immigrant visa (TN1) then switching to an immigrant visa later on. This was my path to a green card.

Iv 9y ago

> Is the USA really so appealing that talented entrepreneurs will jump through this many hoops to start their company here? As a French cofounder of a small startup: no. We are looking at making a structure in Canada in order to hunt US money. We assume that immigration in the US will be a nightmare and we have tons of other problems to solve. European funds and Chinese investors are also interested in our tech. Actually, we should explore if US talents are not willing to move out, to France or Canada instead.

angryteabag 9y ago

I'm a New Zealander and have been trying to relocate to the states for many years. It basically comes down to finding someone to marry me while I am there on my 3 month visiting visa. Problem is, it's hard enough finding someone to hold my hand in NZ, let alone marriage in another country. I had high hopes that Clinton would win and I'd have my dream realised. I guess, it was never meant to be.

delinka 9y ago

> Why would investors risk $250k if the founder may be deported in 30 months? Presumably, the investor has invested in a corporate entity organized in the United States and that the money has been used to pay employees such that there's some kind of structure that continues to exist in the U.S. with or without the founder. If you're the investor, and you're just writing a check to a guy who flew in with a startup visa and nothing else, then I, a U.S. Citizen, have quite a few startup ideas I'd like to discuss with you.