4 ms·

It's something that started as a sign that "we're cool and edgy and different", and gradually become a cultural shibboleth for startup people. Having worked at

by timr 9y ago

It's something that started as a sign that "we're cool and edgy and different", and gradually become a cultural shibboleth for startup people. Having worked at dry offices, offices that had alcohol available at all times, and ones that did weekly TGIFs or whatever, I can't say I favor the trend. Invariably, it becomes a problem, and then people start moaning about how the culture is changing because the alcohol is disappearing. It's also alienating for a lot of otherwise good people (some people are alcoholics!) It's a workplace, not a frat house. If you need a drink, finish your work, and go out and enjoy your life. But then, I feel the same way about office meals (I'd prefer you just paid me a higher salary, and I'll buy my own food, thanks), so I'm not a "team player".

hkmurakami 9y ago
It's a reflection of the workplace as an extension of the frat house environment that many workers at these places cherished. So if you enjoyed that kind of college environment (recall that the average age of such places tend to be very young), then such a company will feel natural.
- timr 9y ago
  Yes, I believe that there's an element of implicit bias to it. It's one of those murky things that gets bundled up with "culture fit" as spurious reasons to reject candidates who don't look and act like you do. Hence the "shibboleth" comment. It's a complicated question. What's innocent, non-coercive fun for a small group of responsible people can get wildly out of control with one bad hire. And we don't do interviews for "angry drunk"....
deathanatos 9y ago
> It's a workplace, not a frat house. If you need a drink, finish your work, and go out and enjoy your life. They're not mutually exclusive. My office has alcohol, but people only tend to drink around or after 5, and typically quietly at their desk while working on something. Occasionally there will be a few people having a conversation in the kitchen over beers in the late afternoon. I wouldn't describe it as a frat house though, and I think if you need to use that to describe an office, that's your problem; the alcohol is just a symptom. I'd be okay with removing the alcohol if my employer also stopped driving me to drink[1]. [1]: https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks
- timr 9y ago
  Yeah, like I said...I've worked in offices that started with "we're all reasonable adults" policies. That's fine until it isn't anymore, and then it's a big, sad outrage and an excuse to complain about the "culture dying" when the rules change. I'm not a teetotaler, but it just seems unnecessary to me. Start with a culture of "we drink at the bar", and it never has to be a problem for anyone in the first place. Alcohol doesn't make you better at your job, so there's really no argument for it, other than "culture", which goes back to the shibboleth thing....
  - walshemj 9y ago
    The ultra puritanical attitude in parts of the USA is also a culture - and if you know your history it has a sectarian nativist basis against immigrants.
    - timr 9y ago
      A dry workplace isn't "ultra puritanical", and implying that immigrants somehow need alcohol in the workplace is hilariously crude.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        I was referring the attitude in the USA in general due to the early ultra protestant settlers, and if you look at the history of nativist anti immigrant movements it was aimed at European often poor catholic immigrants who came for areas with a well established brewing and wine traditions.
        timr 9y ago
        Yes, I know what you were referring to. But there's a huge logical gap between "established brewing and wine traditions" and "must have alcohol at work". The prohibition movement was at least partially anti-immigrant. But saying "drink on your own time" is neither prohibitionist, nor anti-immigrant.
  - 9y ago
dragonwriter 9y ago
> If you need a drink ...get treatment for your alcoholism. If you merely want a drink, then... > finish your work, and go out and enjoy your life.
mrisoli 9y ago
I think it started as "cool and edgy" thing but showed many benefits to startups. First, if you have many people you can buy alcohol in bulk much cheaper than usual, if most of your workforce enjoys it then it is cheaper to buy it for everyone than giving increasing salaries a bit for people to drink on the streets which can be expensive. This is especially true for a very young workforce which spends a lot in entertainment. Second, in startups which are pushing people to work for long periods of time, it can be a way to disguise burnout. If you are spending all day in the office you can feel your social life suffering, but they bring your social life to the office, I have my own anecdotal evidence of this. Third, to a smaller degree, people will stick around and while they are not exactly on call it can pop up solutions to problems or new ideas to the office, I've seen many TGIFs crazy ideas get implemented and generate a better work environment, it can feel like a much safer meeting space for people to speak up.

by timr 9y ago

hkmurakami 9y ago

It's a reflection of the workplace as an extension of the frat house environment that many workers at these places cherished. So if you enjoyed that kind of college environment (recall that the average age of such places tend to be very young), then such a company will feel natural.

timr 9y ago
Yes, I believe that there's an element of implicit bias to it. It's one of those murky things that gets bundled up with "culture fit" as spurious reasons to reject candidates who don't look and act like you do. Hence the "shibboleth" comment. It's a complicated question. What's innocent, non-coercive fun for a small group of responsible people can get wildly out of control with one bad hire. And we don't do interviews for "angry drunk"....

deathanatos 9y ago

> It's a workplace, not a frat house. If you need a drink, finish your work, and go out and enjoy your life. They're not mutually exclusive. My office has alcohol, but people only tend to drink around or after 5, and typically quietly at their desk while working on something. Occasionally there will be a few people having a conversation in the kitchen over beers in the late afternoon. I wouldn't describe it as a frat house though, and I think if you need to use that to describe an office, that's your problem; the alcohol is just a symptom. I'd be okay with removing the alcohol if my employer also stopped driving me to drink[1]. [1]: https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

timr 9y ago
Yeah, like I said...I've worked in offices that started with "we're all reasonable adults" policies. That's fine until it isn't anymore, and then it's a big, sad outrage and an excuse to complain about the "culture dying" when the rules change. I'm not a teetotaler, but it just seems unnecessary to me. Start with a culture of "we drink at the bar", and it never has to be a problem for anyone in the first place. Alcohol doesn't make you better at your job, so there's really no argument for it, other than "culture", which goes back to the shibboleth thing....
- walshemj 9y ago
  The ultra puritanical attitude in parts of the USA is also a culture - and if you know your history it has a sectarian nativist basis against immigrants.
  - timr 9y ago
    A dry workplace isn't "ultra puritanical", and implying that immigrants somehow need alcohol in the workplace is hilariously crude.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      I was referring the attitude in the USA in general due to the early ultra protestant settlers, and if you look at the history of nativist anti immigrant movements it was aimed at European often poor catholic immigrants who came for areas with a well established brewing and wine traditions.
      - timr 9y ago
        Yes, I know what you were referring to. But there's a huge logical gap between "established brewing and wine traditions" and "must have alcohol at work". The prohibition movement was at least partially anti-immigrant. But saying "drink on your own time" is neither prohibitionist, nor anti-immigrant.
- 9y ago

dragonwriter 9y ago

> If you need a drink ...get treatment for your alcoholism. If you merely want a drink, then... > finish your work, and go out and enjoy your life.

mrisoli 9y ago

I think it started as "cool and edgy" thing but showed many benefits to startups. First, if you have many people you can buy alcohol in bulk much cheaper than usual, if most of your workforce enjoys it then it is cheaper to buy it for everyone than giving increasing salaries a bit for people to drink on the streets which can be expensive. This is especially true for a very young workforce which spends a lot in entertainment. Second, in startups which are pushing people to work for long periods of time, it can be a way to disguise burnout. If you are spending all day in the office you can feel your social life suffering, but they bring your social life to the office, I have my own anecdotal evidence of this. Third, to a smaller degree, people will stick around and while they are not exactly on call it can pop up solutions to problems or new ideas to the office, I've seen many TGIFs crazy ideas get implemented and generate a better work environment, it can feel like a much safer meeting space for people to speak up.