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> words in this language correspond to holistic gestures […] even though ABSL has a sizable vocabulary. I don't follow: many ASL signs are completely distinct.

> words in this language correspond to holistic gestures […] even though ABSL has a sizable vocabulary. I don't follow: many ASL signs are completely distinct. There are some incorporations, like classifier CL:3 (vehicle) includes a modified 'V' sign. What exactly is the claim: that a language cannot have a 1:1 mapping of simple representation and meaning i.e. is unambiguous and context-free?

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
They are saying each word in ABSL is a unique sign without being composed from other sign elements. In BSL, for example, [as I learnt it some time ago, at a basic level] the signs for class and group share the hand movement but use respectively the hand-shapes for C and G; they're compound gestures. Or any easier one, vehicles like car, bus, etc. are signed by miming use of a steering wheel and saying/mouthing the word (eg http://www.signbsl.com/sign/truck http://www.signbsl.com/sign/truck - see the "SignStation" version of this and http://www.signbsl.com/sign/car); http://www.signbsl.com/sign/car); again compound. ABSL presumably has words for car and truck but they don't share visual elements? To attempt to answer your question I think the idea is that it's surprising that a language is not compounded from smaller elements, like verbs using "ing" to denote action? Or like how Greek prefixes/suffixes are used in English, xeno- say for foreign (eg in xenophobic: fear/hate for foreigners; and xenolith: a rock type foreign to the surrounding rock) or -lith for rocks (as before and megalith: a big rock). One expects to quickly run out of new sounds (or signs) if you don't compound/combine them atomically.
- falsedan 9y ago
  > In BSL, for example, [as I learnt it some time ago, at a basic level] the signs for class and group share the hand movement but use respectively the hand-shapes for C and G; they're compound gestures. Same in ASL. But I wouldn't call it a compound sign, since it's not combining the COLLECTIVE sign with TOPIC CLASSIFIER:INITIAL C/G IN ENGLISH sign. Would you consider ASL HURRY as a compound sign, since it uses the H handshape as a mnemonic in it? How about ELEVATOR and its C? I would consider compound signs to be things like THROAT DOCTOR, PET STORE, SKIRT LONG, where we use two signs with distinct meanings which are easily comprehended in isolation, but when used together communicate a different concept. > One expects to quickly run out of new sounds (or signs) if you don't compound/combine them atomically. I can see this with the limited options available in spoken languages: there only a few hundred ways to combining vowel-consonant pairs, but a few thousand ways to combine fingers+limb+facial expression+short movement (although the challenge becomes how to reduce interpretation errors i.e. was that index finger flicking down 3 times or thumb flicking up twice?).

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

They are saying each word in ABSL is a unique sign without being composed from other sign elements. In BSL, for example, [as I learnt it some time ago, at a basic level] the signs for class and group share the hand movement but use respectively the hand-shapes for C and G; they're compound gestures. Or any easier one, vehicles like car, bus, etc. are signed by miming use of a steering wheel and saying/mouthing the word (eg http://www.signbsl.com/sign/truck http://www.signbsl.com/sign/truck - see the "SignStation" version of this and http://www.signbsl.com/sign/car); http://www.signbsl.com/sign/car); again compound. ABSL presumably has words for car and truck but they don't share visual elements? To attempt to answer your question I think the idea is that it's surprising that a language is not compounded from smaller elements, like verbs using "ing" to denote action? Or like how Greek prefixes/suffixes are used in English, xeno- say for foreign (eg in xenophobic: fear/hate for foreigners; and xenolith: a rock type foreign to the surrounding rock) or -lith for rocks (as before and megalith: a big rock). One expects to quickly run out of new sounds (or signs) if you don't compound/combine them atomically.

falsedan 9y ago
> In BSL, for example, [as I learnt it some time ago, at a basic level] the signs for class and group share the hand movement but use respectively the hand-shapes for C and G; they're compound gestures. Same in ASL. But I wouldn't call it a compound sign, since it's not combining the COLLECTIVE sign with TOPIC CLASSIFIER:INITIAL C/G IN ENGLISH sign. Would you consider ASL HURRY as a compound sign, since it uses the H handshape as a mnemonic in it? How about ELEVATOR and its C? I would consider compound signs to be things like THROAT DOCTOR, PET STORE, SKIRT LONG, where we use two signs with distinct meanings which are easily comprehended in isolation, but when used together communicate a different concept. > One expects to quickly run out of new sounds (or signs) if you don't compound/combine them atomically. I can see this with the limited options available in spoken languages: there only a few hundred ways to combining vowel-consonant pairs, but a few thousand ways to combine fingers+limb+facial expression+short movement (although the challenge becomes how to reduce interpretation errors i.e. was that index finger flicking down 3 times or thumb flicking up twice?).