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Why green olives come in jars, but black ones come in cans
- feborges 9y agoI live in the Czech Republic and I can find both in glass jars.
- serg_chernata 9y agoMaybe my reading comprehension is shot but I didn't get a very clear answer to the question at hand.
- bryanlarsen 9y agoBecause in the 20s cans could be pasteurized to a higher temperature than jars could. Black olives in jars were killing people with botulism. Green olives are pickled, so didn't require such high pasteurization temperatures.
- serg_chernata 9y agoThanks, and what was the reason for pickling one kind of olives but not the other?
- mamon 9y agoGreen and black olives are one and the same species, but green olives are unripe so they are still growing on a tree, but black ones are ripe so they start falling down by themselves and you can pick them up from the ground, which is much easier.
- weaksauce 9y agoThe article states that she had a recipe for artificially ripening the olives. I don't think the olives are picked ripe.
- drone 9y ago"Pickling" may be an incorrect term here. Green olives are unripe olives, black olives are ripe olives. Unripe olives contain very high levels of oleuropein, which is especially bitter and thus green olives cannot readily be eaten. Ripe olives have little, if any, of this compound. To make green olives edible, they have to be cured (typically using a lye-based process for speed, but can be done with plain water over a longer period of time) to remove the oleuropein, and thus making them edible. After curing, they are typically kept in a salty brine to extend their shelf life. Black olives do not need the curing process, but can be brined in either a salty water brine, or oil, or no brine at all via pasteurization.
- drone 9y agoI realized I left a few questions unanswered here, and for completeness' sake: * Green olives can also be fermented (i.e. w/ yeast and bacteria, instead of using a lye- or pure-water 'cure'), to remove the bitter compound, and would thus be "pickled" in the traditional sense. These olives are not as green or firm as lye-cured olives. * Why not pasteurize green olives, if you can do it with black olives? You can, but the heat would cause the green olives to become mushier, people expect green olives to be firm, and ripe (black olives) to be a bit soft. Soft green olives often are less desirable, outside of some specific preparations. (I.e. 'Greek-style' "crushed" olives.) * Can you ferment, and thus pickle, black olives? Sure, why the heck not? Many Greek styles of black olives are done this way. * Yes, you can pack cured green olives in oil too, like black olives. Anything to reduce the bacterial and oxygen activity in the olives will help to preserve them.
- stickfigure 9y agoThank you! May I ask for an encore? What makes Castelvetrano olives so distinct and delicious? They are almost always a vibrant green with an apple-like crunchiness. To me this is like a completely different fruit. Is this just the genetic stock or are they prepared differently? I put my due diligence into internet research, without satisfaction. Would love to hear from the experts.
- 9y ago
- pyre 9y agoIt's at the end: > The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. > "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." > Eventually, California olives came back. In cans.
- Vindicis 9y agoJust to nitpick that point in the article. You don't need high temperature. As long as you bring the contents to 100 celsius, all you need is time. They use what's called an f-value to determine at what temp and for how long they need to take. The 1 f-value is defined as 1 minutes at 121 cel. Normally for canned goods that will be stored at 25 celsius and lower, they aim for a 4 to 5.5 f-value. So, at 100 degress, to achieve that score would take 8.5 to 12 hours. Whereas at 121 it would only take 4 to 5.5 minutes. Now, what the texture and taste would be like after 8 hours at 100 I leave as an exercise to the reader.
- Indy_Dh 9y agoThis is a dangerous misconception. Bringing botulism spores to 100 Celsius will not kill them, the spores can survive indefinitely at these temperatures. This is literally the reason pressure canning was invented, to heat the liquid to a higher temperature such that botulism spores are destroyed.
- Vindicis 9y agoNo, no it doesn't. You two clearly didn't understand what I wrote. I don't how to explain it any simpler than I already have. Depending on the bacteria and the storage conditions of the canned goods, you might need to hold it to a higher f-value. For instance, canned goods that will be stored in a 25-40C range target an f-value of 12 to 15. The higher the temperature you use, the less time you need. And vice versa. It's a misconception that certain bacteria can only be killed at high heat. Quickly, sure. But, as long as you target the correct f-values, all you need is 100C. And a lot of time.
- jaclaz 9y agoNahh, the explanation is there, alright, though nothing supports the "240 degrees" theory (I have to presume they would be Fahrenheit degrees, i.e. 116-120 Celsius, and of course glass can bear that alright): >The whole industry switched to a new standard for the ripe California olive. "It has to be heated to 240 degrees. And only a can would tolerate that, physically—you couldn’t do that with a glass jar." Eventually, California olives came back. In cans. Even if it was 240 Celsius (which I doubt), glass can bear it just fine.
- pyre 9y ago> of course glass can bear that alright Perhaps not in the 1920s though.
- dpark 9y agoBasic glass formulas haven't changed since long before the 1920s. Even borosilicate glass has been around since the late 1800s.
- Symbiote 9y agoThe setting point of jam is 105°C, so only very slightly cooler. If I remember correctly from making jam with my mother, it's important to pour the really hot jam into the heated jars to ensure everything stays sterile -- so the jam going into the jars is around 105°C.
- jaclaz 9y agoMaybe it is a local (US) thing, here in Italy/Europe you can find black olives in glass jars just fine, a few examples: http://www.polli.it/prodotti/olive/olive-nere-denocciolate-vasetto/ http://www.polli.it/prodotti/olive/olive-nere-denocciolate-v... http://shop.oliosalvagno.it/vasetto-olive-nere-in-salamoia-gr-280-salvagno.html http://shop.oliosalvagno.it/vasetto-olive-nere-in-salamoia-g... https://pietrasantaaltosalento.it/it/home/19-olive-nere-in-salamoia.html https://pietrasantaaltosalento.it/it/home/19-olive-nere-in-s...
- knrz 9y agoYeah, in Canada Kalamata olives can be found in glasses (but black olives are in cans)
- colanderman 9y agoCanned olives in the US are a specific type which are artificially ripened. Is that the case with the olives linked in your post? (I can't read Italian.)
- sametmax 9y agoSame in France. Maybe it's specific to country that have to import olives from far away ?
- kasey_junk 9y agoBlack olives are available in jars in the US as well. They are just a specialty item similar to higher end jarred green olives. Black olives in a can and green olives in a jar are also available in commodity style qualities. So this is better labeled as "why are commodity black olives in a can while commodity green olives are in a jar".
- captainmuon 9y agoYeah, in Germany you can find both kinds in glasses, cans, or plastic pouches. However, I think most black olives here are simply green ones, colored with iron. I found it hard to find real black olives in my supermarket unfortunately. Also, I think the botulism issue is prevented by having an acidic environment.
- logfromblammo 9y agoIf you're in a rush, it was because jarred ripe olives caused a botulism outbreak, and only cans could tolerate the 240 degrees necessary to make them safe for consumption.
- goldenkey 9y agoSeems like it was more a problem with the lids than the actual glass, fyi. I bet now, with more advanced lids not made of suction/rubber and metal, it could be done.
- drzaiusapelord 9y agoAre Kalamata olives not black? These are almost always sold in jars. I guess according to Eataly black is only the California ripe olive. I imagine the salami and olive expert who works at Eataly isn't going to comment on Greek olives. He's still wrong. The article should be about California ripes, not all black olives.
- efficax 9y agoKalamata olives are left to ripen to a deep purple (not black) on the tree, and are cured like other olives (brine or oil). California olives start green, and the curing process turns them black. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWBJkaoRjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKWBJkaoRjM
- urethrafranklin 9y agoBut that is precisely what the article is about. Kalamata olives are neither black phylogenetically nor in color.
- Camillo 9y agoSo all black olives in the US are artificially ripened?
- djrogers 9y agoNo, only the “California Ripe” variety
- jaclaz 9y agoThis may give a "better" explanation (though still unsubstantiated): http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/06/25/tem_ask_a_stupid.html http://enquirer.com/editions/2001/06/25/tem_ask_a_stupid.htm... http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2885/why-is-it-that-green-olives-come-in-glass-jars-but-black-olives-come-in-cans http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2885/why-is-it-that... http://lacrossetribune.com/tomahjournal/lifestyles/ask-your-science-teacher-green-vs-black-olives/article_6ae0713b-280e-5fe0-8c48-335f7cb2028e.html http://lacrossetribune.com/tomahjournal/lifestyles/ask-your-... It seems more like it has become a tradition of some kind in California. More here: http://oliveoilsindia.com/California-Olives.htm http://oliveoilsindia.com/California-Olives.htm it only applies to artificially made ripe olives.
- jaclaz 9y agoAddition: ... and seemingly this "high temperature" sterilization (which is still within 110-120 degree Celsius, so perfectly doable in glass containers) adds acrylamide: https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=322472 https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?... in almost unbelievable amounts: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/jf5022829 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/jf5022829 Heck! 410 micrograms/Kg vs. 1.4 (Greek Olives) and 0 (Spanish Olives)! http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=260 http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=260 >What About Acrylamide and Olives? Research on olives and their acrylamide content has shown some inconsistency over the past several years and this inconsistency has sparked controversy in the public press about olives and their health risk with respect to acrylamide. In data assembled by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), we've seen more than a dozen different kinds of olives, including Spanish, Greek, Kalamata, Nolellata, Sicilian, d'Abruzzo, and Gaeta, and di Cerignola that were determined to contain no detectable level of acrylamide. Yet we have also seen FDA data showing levels of acrylamide as high as 1,925 ppb in some canned, nationally distributed brands of black pitted olives. Based on this data, we suspect that these higher acrylamide levels in select canned black olives were related to specific handling, storage, processing (especially preservation and darkening methods), and heating steps that favored formation of acrylamide. It's also important to note here that we are not aware of any data showing problematic levels of acrylamide in any extra virgin olive oils available in the marketplace. At present, we are not aware of any foolproof method that consumers can use to avoid purchase of canned black olives that contain unwanted amounts of acrylamide. Since the FDA data has shown no detectable levels of acrylamide in numerous samples of important olives packed in brine, those olives may be worth considering as options that may help avoid unwanted acrylamide. As stated previously, extra virgin olive oil is another form of this nutrient-rich food that, to our knowledge, has not been shown in research to contain unwanted amounts of acrylamide.
- tim2387 9y agoHmmm. I almost always buy black olives packed in jars.
- vacri 9y agoThrowing my antipodean hat into the ring to add to the growing chorus of "black olives come in jars".
- rdtsc 9y agoYou can just got to the international section or to stores which sell more international food, specifically Mediterranean or Middle Eastern. There are lots of varieties of olive, different sizes, packaged differently and so on.
- alfanick 9y agoWe need olives expert from HN - is this just USA (California) thing? I don't believe that black olives in Europe are actually artificially dyed with iron gluconate. My impression is that in Europe black olives are riped olives picked in late autumn or winter. Anyone to confirm?
- vkreso 9y agoNot an olive expert, but in Croatia (and probably the rest of Europe - Mediterranean) AFAIK green olives are picked in autumn, and black ones, that is full ripe ones, are picked in November and December. Those olives are used for the production of olive oil and they give the oil it's distinct golden colour... honestly, colouring olives sounds awful.
- shmerl 9y agoI'm missing something here. The article doesn't explain whether black color is the result of artificial ripening or not, and why it creates a risk of botulism (while green olives don't have it).
- Tinyforebrain 9y agoBotulinum spores need * Low Oxygen * Low Salt * Low Acid Green Olives are only processed by being in a high salt solution that also contains some vinegar.(Or are lacto-fermented to create the acid.) Essentially they are brine-pickles. Black Olives are soaked in Lye(very alkaline) until they are uniformly soaked, then put into a acid solution that helps develop their color(They are dark normally, but not uniformly black). The brine is lower in salt also. In order to make it safe for canning, they pressure can it to get to hotter than 240(I've always heard 250, but the article says 240). Until the advent of modern polymer lined cans, salt would corrode the metal at the concentrations in green olives. So I doubt its a Black = metal can thing so much as... * Automating pressure canning is easier/cheaper in metal. * Green Olives High salt, High acid, would corrode the metal. * Black Olives Lower salt, lower acid, could be metal canned.
- shmerl 9y agoThanks for the explanation!
- dkrich 9y agoI was surprised to read that the reason isn't that green olives are typically used to make martinis. It seems to me that having a jar of olives on a bar would make for a better appearance than a can. Also, green olives are typically stuffed with pimentos or garlic or blue cheese, and so being able to see them might help sell them, whereas black olives are used for things other canned vegetables are used for, ie salads, casseroles, etc.
- marcgcombi 9y agoAll olives are beautiful, in their own special way! :)
- jxramos 9y agoI find the account of the epidemiology investigation very intriguing with the whole seating chart and all. Cool stuff.
- acehreli 9y agoThe article is not about olives, rather about those black things that Californians eat on pizza and some salads. They neither look like nor taste like olives. :p
- apo 9y agoAs others have noted, the article doesn't seem to answer the question it poses. What's missing is more detail around the process of producing green and black olives. Watch the end of the embedded video: https://youtu.be/xKWBJkaoRjM?t=1m7s https://youtu.be/xKWBJkaoRjM?t=1m7s Black olives enter the canning facility unripe and green. Bubbling air blackens them. This part of the process isn't mentioned at all in the article, and it's hard to know whether this was the process being used by Freda Ehmann, or whether/how this oxygen treatment resulted in the botulism cases. All in all, not the best in technical reporting.
- an_account 9y agoThat part of the process doesn't seem relevant to how they are packaged.
- sb8244 9y agoIf you read into this more, it's actually the lye solution which artificially ripens the olive. That Youtube video doesn't go into the lye process other than the chart that you can see on the wall while going over the 7 day process. My guess is they don't really want to be verbal that lye is used (sounds a little gross to me). However, the gap between why black olives are prone to botulism and green olives are not prone is not covered. I wish that was expanded on.
- synicalx 9y agoI've literally never seen a "can" of olives, is that normal in some weird part of the world?