8 ms·

One thing the article doesn't mention is how long the bicycle trips are. Surely the relative compactness of their cities are a major contributing factor! I liv

One thing the article doesn't mention is how long the bicycle trips are. Surely the relative compactness of their cities are a major contributing factor! I live in America and commute on my bicycle almost every day. For me the biggest obstacle isn't the hills (which there are plenty of) or even sharing the road with cars (which is admittedly extremely unpleasant) but the fact that in the quasi-suburban area in which I live, everything's so damned spread out that bicycling is very impractical.

advanderveer 9y ago
what would be the kind of distance you're talking about? When growing up in the Netherlands it was common for kids from my town to cycle 20 km every day going to school.
- jandrese 9y ago
  That's an hour each way at a fairly decent clip on a bike[1]. In my book that's a long commute. [1] At roughly the speed I can bike in moderate to cool temps without getting excessively sweaty.
  - the_gastropod 9y ago
    20km is ~6 miles each way. Unless there are significant obstacles (hills, many stoplights, etc), an hour to go 6 miles seems excessive.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      If it's 20km round trip that's not too bad. 20km each way is a bit much.
    - jandrese 9y ago
      I read it as 20km each way, 40km total. I agree that a 10km each way trip is far more reasonable. In fact that's only slightly longer than my 5 mile bike commute, and I bet they have fewer 90F (32c) and 80% humidity days than we do here.
      - wott 9y ago
        I read it that way, but then, that would mean there is no school within 20 km, so an empty space where schools around are separated by 40 km. I think there are very few possible spaces like that in Netherlands, or in most Western Europe. Or then we are talking about high-schools, which are more sparse. So I guess 2x10 km is the most likely answer. And that's already a lot.
      - advanderveer 9y ago
        I ment 10km each way, 20km each way would feel excessive to me as well. For those cases (in dutch rural areas) there would almost always be some kind of bus service to take kids.
  - ptero 9y ago
    I think it should be shorter than an hour -- 10km is 6.25mi. I can easily walk at a 4 mph clip for a long time without getting sweaty or tired. 10km on a flat bike path should not take more than 25-30 min. Maybe add 5 min for traffic lights if there are many.
TulliusCicero 9y ago
This is definitely a major factor, although even in less dense areas, biking can be useful if there's protected bike lanes/paths.
ricardobeat 9y ago
What do you consider a long trip? In my case I cycle 6.8km each way everyday, which is probably slightly above the average.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  A 4 mile trip is definitely not very long. In Chicago, a fairly dense city (for the US), that would hardly get you across the central core where many many people cannot afford to live. I have what I consider a fairly easy bicycle commute which is double that.
- bradlys 9y ago
  Anything longer than 30 minutes each way is probably beyond what many people would like to spend commuting. So, that's about 4-7 miles (depending on variety of conditions). Which, I gotta say, is not very far for most Americans. Most of us commute around 15 miles each way.
  - ashark 9y ago
    > Most of us commute around 15 miles each way. The really crappy part is how much of that 15 miles is caused by car infrastructure. Imagine how much closer one might be to work if the distance were compressed, removing about 80% of all street and highway width, the entirety of all road buffer zones (highways often have several times as much of this as they have actual road), front yards (= mostly to keep house back from busy road and allow space for cars on driveway), parking lots (often several times as large as the place they're meant to serve), and so on. I'd be surprised if such compression didn't shave about half the distance off.
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      Just take a couple more steps, and stack things into big buildings. You'll save even more space, and get things even closer together. It would certainly be more efficient (although, also more similar to a lot of places I've chosen to avoid living in...)
  - 9y ago
kough 9y ago
> The famously flat Dutch terrain, combined with densely-populated areas, mean that most journeys are of short duration and not too difficult to complete. > Few Dutch people don lycra to get out on their bike, preferring to ride to work, the shops or the pub in whatever clothes they think appropriate for their final destination. > Of course, the cycle paths lend themselves to sauntering along in summer dresses in a way a death-defying, white-knuckle ride in rush-hour traffic does not. It is also partly because of this that people don't need showers at work to be able to commute by bike - it's a no-sweat experience. So, reading with some context clues, the answer is "not long enough to work up a sweat."
- dtech 9y ago
  People usually bike quite leisurely in the Netherlands. You can easily bike 10-15km in reasonable time without sweating, especially if you're used to riding a bike.
  - f4rker 9y ago
    >without sweating right now in NL it is 80 deg right now where I live is 90 deg the high temp for NL for the week is around 90 the high temp where I live this week is around 101 a few degrees either way makes a lot of difference
  - analog31 9y ago
    One difference between the NL, and most US cities, is climate. There's a large portion of the US that gets much hotter, and much colder than Amsterdam. My town gets 10 degrees F hotter, and 30 degrees F colder. I ride in regular clothes during the summer, but it takes some planning, notably starting early in the morning and riding slowly.
- eecc 9y ago
  "Fietsen" stands for "riding a bike", leisurely. Fitness racing is called "wielrennen", running on wheels, totally different thing.
- omnimus 9y ago
  I lived some time in Amsterdam. I was not fit and almost couldnt ride a bike. I was sweating like hell first two months. After half a year you will learn to ride pretty fast without sweating. You wouldnt believe how fast some if the dutch natives are - in suits and without hands of course. They can even turn without holding a bike.
s0rce 9y ago
Length does play a role but I would definitely trade the 15% grade and 300ft climb at the end of my 4mi trip in the Oakland hills for an extra 3-4 mile of flat/gentle rolling terrain.
davidw 9y ago
It does mention that: > The famously flat Dutch terrain, combined with densely-populated areas, mean that most journeys are of short duration and not too difficult to complete. The problem in the US is, in no small part, due to zoning. I've been making my way through this: http://amzn.to/2tkSbsH http://amzn.to/2tkSbsH - "Zoned in the USA" And the detailed look at how other countries do things is interesting - they're certainly no "libertopia", but far more typologies of housing are allowed, as well as commercial uses in primarily residential areas. It's worth a look for those who are deeply interested in the topic. I actually have quite a collection of articles about this stuff, as it's been one of my main interests lately: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/
- icebraining 9y ago
  I like this lecture by Andres Duany: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL01072BB79369B705 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL01072BB79369B705 The most relevant part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1X5uVR5NxY&list=PL01072BB79369B705&index=3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1X5uVR5NxY&list=PL01072BB79...
  - tmnvix 9y ago
    I love the way he describes the pedestrian in the artist's impression as "theoretically possible".
  - davidw 9y ago
    Looks cool, but I don't really do videos... not enough time.
wila 9y ago
Dunno, I used to ride the bycicle to the school in the city which is 25km away from where I lived. So 50km (31 miles) a day at least. In the village where I grew up that was pretty common.
- dtech 9y ago
  In my experience, every school kid who lived ~10km or more away bought a moped (scooter) the instant they turned 16, when they were allowed to drive one.
  - mercer 9y ago
    Interesting. In my experience this wasn't common, but I was part of geekier VWO. Scooters were slightly more common at HAVO and very popular with VMBO. And while there might be a connection with education level, scooters were also stereotypically owned by Turkish/Moroccan kids. I always felt a bit sad that it wasn't more normal for 'my crowd' to have scooters. I would've loved a scooter.
  - wila 9y ago
    Some bought mopeds/scooters, most did not. There was a couple of teenagers living another 5km further away and still riding a bycicle. Now when those turned 18.. that's a different story, it did not take them very long before the driver license was there. When I look at my nieces/nephews now, then it is mostly still the same story. Except that indeed the number of mopeds is higher, but still under 50%.
  - mcv 9y ago
    I didn't. And I know many who don't. Though it's true that many do. Still, there's a couple of years of school before they turn 16.
- eugeniub 9y ago
  The difference then is probably widespread access to cars. With suburbs being so spread out, most people would rather drive rather than bike more than 5 miles per trip, despite the big environmental and personal health consequences.
sporkenfang 9y ago
I'm hoping for a possible future in which there is massive rezoning in the U.S. so that mixed neighborhoods (residential, business, etc) within reason, like bodegas and offices and apartments and row houses together, not cement plants next to kindergartens, are universal. I just bloody hate driving and the less I have to do it the happier I am. Would rather be outside getting exercise.
- ocschwar 9y ago
  The Japanese have the perfect answer. They don't zone by use. They zone by nuisance level. You can build whatever you want in the cement-plant-district. But you have to deal with having that kind of nuisance nearby. You can also build whatever you want in the no-nuisance district. But you can't impose any kind of nuisnace.
  - mercer 9y ago
    How do they deal with the tension of having bars/clubs in residential areas? Or do these areas just not exist in Japan?
    - mikekchar 9y ago
      We happily walk to the bar from our houses and then walk back after having a few drinks. One of the advantages of having bars in residential areas is that you don't concentrate them in one area. Unless you live in a big metropolis, the bars are not large, are not noisy and don't cause many problems. To be fair, I don't know how dance clubs are zoned. I have never seen one outside of a reasonably sized city. But, you can definitely hear people croning away in the karaoke clubs at night.
    - erikpukinskis 9y ago
      If you want silence at home, move to the country. The notion that urban spaces should be free of human voices at any hour is ludicrous. No loud music after midnight is reasonable, but other than that if you can't sleep install better insulation. No one is forcing you to live in the city.
scardine 9y ago
I live in Brazil and commute by bicycle daily, 10.5 km each way (6.5 miles, mostly cycleways). Not without problems however: the air polution in Sao Paulo recommends against physical activities, the cycleways are of very questionable quality and the Pinheiros river stinks as hell. I can spot some capybaras (they are like giant guinea pigs) in the morning, have to dodge their excrement in the cycleway (they shit like a horse, no kidding).
- dmichulke 9y ago
  Kudos, you are a brave man. From what I know from Florianopolis, moving on less than four wheels (including walking) is just plain dangerous unless you have a physically separated lane. I know several people who got injured and I see many white bikes attached to posts on the road as a sign of "someone on a bike lost his life here". Of course, the physically separate lane still has many wholes and occasionally a 30cm high "cliff" at its two ends but it shouldn't get you killed. Florianopolis is made for cars and it feels like all attempts at allowing for bikes are half-assed at best.
  - scardine 9y ago
    Well, I used to cummute by motorcycle before and yes, everything in Brazil is brutal, traffic is not an exception. Two motorcycle riders die in in Sao Paulo EVERY SINGLE DAY on average - this statictic is not counting the ones that die a week later in the hospitals. There are more than 1 million motorcycles registered in the city (1 for every 10 citizens) but still a lot of meaningless deaths. Previous mayor Haddad made a lot of bicycle lanes all over the city but they are of very poor quality, some are plain dangerous or are in areas where they are not used (poor planning). That said, I would trade Sao Paulo by Florianopolis any day of the week - in Sao Paulo I'm 50 miles from the sea, in Florianopolis you can surf before the work.
DavideNL 9y ago
> everything's so damned spread out that bicycling is very impractical. The solution: e-bike. Where i live in the Netherlands many people use them (not just elderly.) Just this week i saw a 15 year old kid drive back home from school on an e-bike. If you have to drive a long distance, an e-bike eases makes it much easier/faster...
- s73ver 9y ago
  E-Bikes are a good idea, but they're pretty expensive. Like, you could buy a car for the cost of one.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Cars have exceptionally high ownership costs: parking, licensing, maintenance, fuel, insurance. Even an expensive bicycle pencils out very quickly relatively.
    - s73ver 9y ago
      Perhaps, but both still have pretty high, prohibitive to some, up front costs.
      - dredmorbius 9y ago
        The responses which occur: 1. Current eBikes are generally small-scale prototypes. Prices should fall with volume. 2. They're generally comparably priced to a small motorbike, for which they're a near substitute. 3. Financing of large consumer purchases turns out to be a fairly frequently-occurring (and solved) proplem. I don't think this will be a showstopper. 4. Actually, checking Amazon, eBike prices seem to be on par or lower than what I'd pay for a decent standard bike: ~$750 US or so. Kits as low as $250 for wheel conversion. https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ebike&tag=duckduckgo-20 https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywo...
jacquesm 9y ago
I regularly bike 65 km roundtrip 130 in a day, it is a good workout but nothing extreme. Flat ground really helps.

advanderveer 9y ago

what would be the kind of distance you're talking about? When growing up in the Netherlands it was common for kids from my town to cycle 20 km every day going to school.

jandrese 9y ago
That's an hour each way at a fairly decent clip on a bike[1]. In my book that's a long commute. [1] At roughly the speed I can bike in moderate to cool temps without getting excessively sweaty.
- the_gastropod 9y ago
  20km is ~6 miles each way. Unless there are significant obstacles (hills, many stoplights, etc), an hour to go 6 miles seems excessive.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    If it's 20km round trip that's not too bad. 20km each way is a bit much.
  - jandrese 9y ago
    I read it as 20km each way, 40km total. I agree that a 10km each way trip is far more reasonable. In fact that's only slightly longer than my 5 mile bike commute, and I bet they have fewer 90F (32c) and 80% humidity days than we do here.
    - wott 9y ago
      I read it that way, but then, that would mean there is no school within 20 km, so an empty space where schools around are separated by 40 km. I think there are very few possible spaces like that in Netherlands, or in most Western Europe. Or then we are talking about high-schools, which are more sparse. So I guess 2x10 km is the most likely answer. And that's already a lot.
    - advanderveer 9y ago
      I ment 10km each way, 20km each way would feel excessive to me as well. For those cases (in dutch rural areas) there would almost always be some kind of bus service to take kids.
- ptero 9y ago
  I think it should be shorter than an hour -- 10km is 6.25mi. I can easily walk at a 4 mph clip for a long time without getting sweaty or tired. 10km on a flat bike path should not take more than 25-30 min. Maybe add 5 min for traffic lights if there are many.

TulliusCicero 9y ago

This is definitely a major factor, although even in less dense areas, biking can be useful if there's protected bike lanes/paths.

ricardobeat 9y ago

What do you consider a long trip? In my case I cycle 6.8km each way everyday, which is probably slightly above the average.

kasey_junk 9y ago
A 4 mile trip is definitely not very long. In Chicago, a fairly dense city (for the US), that would hardly get you across the central core where many many people cannot afford to live. I have what I consider a fairly easy bicycle commute which is double that.
bradlys 9y ago
Anything longer than 30 minutes each way is probably beyond what many people would like to spend commuting. So, that's about 4-7 miles (depending on variety of conditions). Which, I gotta say, is not very far for most Americans. Most of us commute around 15 miles each way.
- ashark 9y ago
  > Most of us commute around 15 miles each way. The really crappy part is how much of that 15 miles is caused by car infrastructure. Imagine how much closer one might be to work if the distance were compressed, removing about 80% of all street and highway width, the entirety of all road buffer zones (highways often have several times as much of this as they have actual road), front yards (= mostly to keep house back from busy road and allow space for cars on driveway), parking lots (often several times as large as the place they're meant to serve), and so on. I'd be surprised if such compression didn't shave about half the distance off.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Just take a couple more steps, and stack things into big buildings. You'll save even more space, and get things even closer together. It would certainly be more efficient (although, also more similar to a lot of places I've chosen to avoid living in...)
- 9y ago

kough 9y ago

> The famously flat Dutch terrain, combined with densely-populated areas, mean that most journeys are of short duration and not too difficult to complete. > Few Dutch people don lycra to get out on their bike, preferring to ride to work, the shops or the pub in whatever clothes they think appropriate for their final destination. > Of course, the cycle paths lend themselves to sauntering along in summer dresses in a way a death-defying, white-knuckle ride in rush-hour traffic does not. It is also partly because of this that people don't need showers at work to be able to commute by bike - it's a no-sweat experience. So, reading with some context clues, the answer is "not long enough to work up a sweat."

dtech 9y ago
People usually bike quite leisurely in the Netherlands. You can easily bike 10-15km in reasonable time without sweating, especially if you're used to riding a bike.
- f4rker 9y ago
  >without sweating right now in NL it is 80 deg right now where I live is 90 deg the high temp for NL for the week is around 90 the high temp where I live this week is around 101 a few degrees either way makes a lot of difference
- analog31 9y ago
  One difference between the NL, and most US cities, is climate. There's a large portion of the US that gets much hotter, and much colder than Amsterdam. My town gets 10 degrees F hotter, and 30 degrees F colder. I ride in regular clothes during the summer, but it takes some planning, notably starting early in the morning and riding slowly.
eecc 9y ago
"Fietsen" stands for "riding a bike", leisurely. Fitness racing is called "wielrennen", running on wheels, totally different thing.
omnimus 9y ago
I lived some time in Amsterdam. I was not fit and almost couldnt ride a bike. I was sweating like hell first two months. After half a year you will learn to ride pretty fast without sweating. You wouldnt believe how fast some if the dutch natives are - in suits and without hands of course. They can even turn without holding a bike.

s0rce 9y ago

Length does play a role but I would definitely trade the 15% grade and 300ft climb at the end of my 4mi trip in the Oakland hills for an extra 3-4 mile of flat/gentle rolling terrain.

davidw 9y ago

It does mention that: > The famously flat Dutch terrain, combined with densely-populated areas, mean that most journeys are of short duration and not too difficult to complete. The problem in the US is, in no small part, due to zoning. I've been making my way through this: http://amzn.to/2tkSbsH http://amzn.to/2tkSbsH - "Zoned in the USA" And the detailed look at how other countries do things is interesting - they're certainly no "libertopia", but far more typologies of housing are allowed, as well as commercial uses in primarily residential areas. It's worth a look for those who are deeply interested in the topic. I actually have quite a collection of articles about this stuff, as it's been one of my main interests lately: https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/ https://bendyimby.com/2017/06/12/yimby-reading/

icebraining 9y ago
I like this lecture by Andres Duany: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL01072BB79369B705 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL01072BB79369B705 The most relevant part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1X5uVR5NxY&list=PL01072BB79369B705&index=3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1X5uVR5NxY&list=PL01072BB79...
- tmnvix 9y ago
  I love the way he describes the pedestrian in the artist's impression as "theoretically possible".
- davidw 9y ago
  Looks cool, but I don't really do videos... not enough time.

wila 9y ago

Dunno, I used to ride the bycicle to the school in the city which is 25km away from where I lived. So 50km (31 miles) a day at least. In the village where I grew up that was pretty common.

dtech 9y ago
In my experience, every school kid who lived ~10km or more away bought a moped (scooter) the instant they turned 16, when they were allowed to drive one.
- mercer 9y ago
  Interesting. In my experience this wasn't common, but I was part of geekier VWO. Scooters were slightly more common at HAVO and very popular with VMBO. And while there might be a connection with education level, scooters were also stereotypically owned by Turkish/Moroccan kids. I always felt a bit sad that it wasn't more normal for 'my crowd' to have scooters. I would've loved a scooter.
- wila 9y ago
  Some bought mopeds/scooters, most did not. There was a couple of teenagers living another 5km further away and still riding a bycicle. Now when those turned 18.. that's a different story, it did not take them very long before the driver license was there. When I look at my nieces/nephews now, then it is mostly still the same story. Except that indeed the number of mopeds is higher, but still under 50%.
- mcv 9y ago
  I didn't. And I know many who don't. Though it's true that many do. Still, there's a couple of years of school before they turn 16.
eugeniub 9y ago
The difference then is probably widespread access to cars. With suburbs being so spread out, most people would rather drive rather than bike more than 5 miles per trip, despite the big environmental and personal health consequences.

sporkenfang 9y ago

I'm hoping for a possible future in which there is massive rezoning in the U.S. so that mixed neighborhoods (residential, business, etc) within reason, like bodegas and offices and apartments and row houses together, not cement plants next to kindergartens, are universal. I just bloody hate driving and the less I have to do it the happier I am. Would rather be outside getting exercise.

ocschwar 9y ago
The Japanese have the perfect answer. They don't zone by use. They zone by nuisance level. You can build whatever you want in the cement-plant-district. But you have to deal with having that kind of nuisance nearby. You can also build whatever you want in the no-nuisance district. But you can't impose any kind of nuisnace.
- mercer 9y ago
  How do they deal with the tension of having bars/clubs in residential areas? Or do these areas just not exist in Japan?
  - mikekchar 9y ago
    We happily walk to the bar from our houses and then walk back after having a few drinks. One of the advantages of having bars in residential areas is that you don't concentrate them in one area. Unless you live in a big metropolis, the bars are not large, are not noisy and don't cause many problems. To be fair, I don't know how dance clubs are zoned. I have never seen one outside of a reasonably sized city. But, you can definitely hear people croning away in the karaoke clubs at night.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    If you want silence at home, move to the country. The notion that urban spaces should be free of human voices at any hour is ludicrous. No loud music after midnight is reasonable, but other than that if you can't sleep install better insulation. No one is forcing you to live in the city.

scardine 9y ago

I live in Brazil and commute by bicycle daily, 10.5 km each way (6.5 miles, mostly cycleways). Not without problems however: the air polution in Sao Paulo recommends against physical activities, the cycleways are of very questionable quality and the Pinheiros river stinks as hell. I can spot some capybaras (they are like giant guinea pigs) in the morning, have to dodge their excrement in the cycleway (they shit like a horse, no kidding).

dmichulke 9y ago
Kudos, you are a brave man. From what I know from Florianopolis, moving on less than four wheels (including walking) is just plain dangerous unless you have a physically separated lane. I know several people who got injured and I see many white bikes attached to posts on the road as a sign of "someone on a bike lost his life here". Of course, the physically separate lane still has many wholes and occasionally a 30cm high "cliff" at its two ends but it shouldn't get you killed. Florianopolis is made for cars and it feels like all attempts at allowing for bikes are half-assed at best.
- scardine 9y ago
  Well, I used to cummute by motorcycle before and yes, everything in Brazil is brutal, traffic is not an exception. Two motorcycle riders die in in Sao Paulo EVERY SINGLE DAY on average - this statictic is not counting the ones that die a week later in the hospitals. There are more than 1 million motorcycles registered in the city (1 for every 10 citizens) but still a lot of meaningless deaths. Previous mayor Haddad made a lot of bicycle lanes all over the city but they are of very poor quality, some are plain dangerous or are in areas where they are not used (poor planning). That said, I would trade Sao Paulo by Florianopolis any day of the week - in Sao Paulo I'm 50 miles from the sea, in Florianopolis you can surf before the work.

DavideNL 9y ago

> everything's so damned spread out that bicycling is very impractical. The solution: e-bike. Where i live in the Netherlands many people use them (not just elderly.) Just this week i saw a 15 year old kid drive back home from school on an e-bike. If you have to drive a long distance, an e-bike eases makes it much easier/faster...

s73ver 9y ago
E-Bikes are a good idea, but they're pretty expensive. Like, you could buy a car for the cost of one.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Cars have exceptionally high ownership costs: parking, licensing, maintenance, fuel, insurance. Even an expensive bicycle pencils out very quickly relatively.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    Perhaps, but both still have pretty high, prohibitive to some, up front costs.
    - dredmorbius 9y ago
      The responses which occur: 1. Current eBikes are generally small-scale prototypes. Prices should fall with volume. 2. They're generally comparably priced to a small motorbike, for which they're a near substitute. 3. Financing of large consumer purchases turns out to be a fairly frequently-occurring (and solved) proplem. I don't think this will be a showstopper. 4. Actually, checking Amazon, eBike prices seem to be on par or lower than what I'd pay for a decent standard bike: ~$750 US or so. Kits as low as $250 for wheel conversion. https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ebike&tag=duckduckgo-20 https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywo...

jacquesm 9y ago

I regularly bike 65 km roundtrip 130 in a day, it is a good workout but nothing extreme. Flat ground really helps.