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The problem I find with this outlook is that it takes technical terms being jargon at face value. If you can't fall back on progress in language which allows yo

The problem I find with this outlook is that it takes technical terms being jargon at face value. If you can't fall back on progress in language which allows you to express more complex ideas, you're not going to reach the same depth of understanding in simpler words without it taking a lot longer anyways - with most of your time spent reestablishing what you just threw out the window. If you rehash it in smaller words, just by information density alone, aren't you guaranteed to be losing some detail?

godzillabrennus 9y ago
Explaining a concept doesn't need to be done with complex technical terms. Analogies are sufficient. Executing on a concept using complex technology requires complex technical terms.
- adrianratnapala 9y ago
  It depends on the concept. ivanbakel is not making some blanket claim that things always require complex technical terms. He is just saying that language -- including field-specific jargon -- evolves so that people steeped in the language can explain things to each other. The clearest example of that how hard it is to decypher popular articles about quantum mechanics. Here, even when explaining concepts at a skin deep level, stories they tell are utterly inadequate if not misleading. That's because even the basic concepts of QM are ones from linear algebra. And is shy Feynman was a sometimes devotee of the "shut up and calculate" school of interpretation.
jlg23 9y ago
> If you rehash it in smaller words, just by information density alone, aren't you guaranteed to be losing some detail? Of course, but when explaining something to another person, one should strive to optimize for being understood, not for the highest information density.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  But then what does it mean to be understood? If you skip out the part of the analogy where you actually return to the complex terminology you're simplifying, you haven't produced understanding - you've only made a just-so story which is a reflection of the reality, not a justification for it.
  - lm_nop 9y ago
    "But then what does it mean to be understood?" Great epistemological question for the ages. Vectors for the response include audience type, previous knowledge context, goal for how much needs to be conveyed...
    - dtashima 9y ago
      This is the key. The person you explained it to could probably not turn around and explain it to someone else, but could walk away thinking that they understood it.
  - fnordfnordfnord 9y ago
    I don't think the idea is that you must always explain all of the things in eli5 fashion.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >But then what does it mean to be understood? The same thing that it means to hear a bad quality 8bit, 20kbps copy of a song. It's still better than NOT hearing it, and it gives you an idea about what it entails, even if you don't hear all the information in it. Even in everyday language we make the distinction about understanding something fully and having a rough understanding of it.
  - jlg23 9y ago
    It's the other way around: First was the concept, then the agreement which words we use to describe them. > If you skip out the part of the analogy where you actually return to the complex terminology you're simplifying, you haven't produced understanding Billions of people know what a telephone does and how to use one without understanding τῆλε ("tele-", distant) and φωνή ("phone", voice, talk, language). They all get the concept and nobody would argue that they need to understand the terminology as well. Or: I can teach you to play chess without teaching a single chess-specific term. Yes, other players will laugh at you when you call the pawns "smurfs", but when you understand how to handle your smurf-army, opponents will stop laughing after hearing you announcing "death by smurf-supported horse in 2 turns". (Though they'll definitely hate you for calling a knight a horse ;).
jmileham 9y ago
But explaining something in simple terms is a necessary step to teaching the concept. Only once the concept is understood can you put a name to it and keep climbing the ladder of abstraction. This article doesn't devalue proper terminology, it values fluency with abstractions.
- samuell 9y ago
  This. I tend to think a key to really understanding something, is the ability to put that "something" in to contexts at a wide variety of abstraction levels. That's what I hated the most with uni: Some professors could write 10 blackboards full of formulae, but could hardly put together a few words to explain what we were actually doing. Unsurprisingly, I don't remember much from these lectures. Fortunately that is not all professors, but it worries me how large a percent of them were like this.
usuallybaffled 9y ago
Maybe a refinement of this approach is to FIRST explain in simple terms to establish basic understanding and SECOND going deeper with technical jargon.
scott_s 9y ago
"Education is a series of small lies." Spoken by my intro to computer engineering professor, upon telling us that most real processors actually have some ternary logic. The notion here is that educating beginners about a subject is different from communication between experts. Yes, experts use jargon because it is more efficient. But, the notion here is that if you truly understand something, you should be able to find a way to explain it to a non-expert, building up from words and concepts they already understand. And, further, if you can't do that, then perhaps your understanding is not as deep as you thought it was.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  > most real processors actually have some ternary logic Was he referring to the Z state? If so, it's not really ternary logic but rather a "no result" state for cases where there is a control signal involved (e.g., in a tri-state buffer).
  - mod 9y ago
    So it was a small lie?
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      Not really, no. More like an unnecessary detail, especially if it was an introductory course on the subject. It's not like knowledge of the Z state will suddenly change how you would design systems.
  - tlb 9y ago
    Modern CPUs have phase-locked loops generating clocks for each region of the chip. These use separate pull-up and pull-down mosfets to control the frequency, so arguably ternary. Even more non-binary things happen inside DRAM and flash memory.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      Ehh I don't believe PLLs have a ternary component at all. I'm not an expert though. DRAM is analog-based due to the fact that the core memory unit is a capacitor, so it can't be ternary (not digital). I might agree with flash though.
cle 9y ago
> If you rehash it in smaller words, just by information density alone, aren't you guaranteed to be losing some detail? Yes, but knowing which information you can lose is why it is said that you don't understand it until you can explain it. Explaining it in simple terms forces you to over-simplify, and then you have to pick which information is important and which isn't...and doing that requires a deep understanding of the subject (and your audience).
- ikeyany 9y ago
  You have a knack for explaining "explaining something in simple terms" in simple terms. Kudos.
cortesoft 9y ago
If you can't re-write it in assembly, you don't know how it works!
WhoBeI 9y ago
Well, yeah, but the technical detail doesn't have to remain low. When you first explain something to someone you keep it simple so that they get the broad picture, you use analogies and what not. As they learn you can start introducing more and more detail. It's about explaining in a way the recipient can understand so "simple terms" becomes "terms your recipient can understand".
SilasX 9y ago
It's not a fail if you use jargon. It's a fail if you can't explain the jargon.

godzillabrennus 9y ago

Explaining a concept doesn't need to be done with complex technical terms. Analogies are sufficient. Executing on a concept using complex technology requires complex technical terms.

adrianratnapala 9y ago
It depends on the concept. ivanbakel is not making some blanket claim that things always require complex technical terms. He is just saying that language -- including field-specific jargon -- evolves so that people steeped in the language can explain things to each other. The clearest example of that how hard it is to decypher popular articles about quantum mechanics. Here, even when explaining concepts at a skin deep level, stories they tell are utterly inadequate if not misleading. That's because even the basic concepts of QM are ones from linear algebra. And is shy Feynman was a sometimes devotee of the "shut up and calculate" school of interpretation.

jlg23 9y ago

> If you rehash it in smaller words, just by information density alone, aren't you guaranteed to be losing some detail? Of course, but when explaining something to another person, one should strive to optimize for being understood, not for the highest information density.

ivanbakel 9y ago
But then what does it mean to be understood? If you skip out the part of the analogy where you actually return to the complex terminology you're simplifying, you haven't produced understanding - you've only made a just-so story which is a reflection of the reality, not a justification for it.
- lm_nop 9y ago
  "But then what does it mean to be understood?" Great epistemological question for the ages. Vectors for the response include audience type, previous knowledge context, goal for how much needs to be conveyed...
  - dtashima 9y ago
    This is the key. The person you explained it to could probably not turn around and explain it to someone else, but could walk away thinking that they understood it.
- fnordfnordfnord 9y ago
  I don't think the idea is that you must always explain all of the things in eli5 fashion.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >But then what does it mean to be understood? The same thing that it means to hear a bad quality 8bit, 20kbps copy of a song. It's still better than NOT hearing it, and it gives you an idea about what it entails, even if you don't hear all the information in it. Even in everyday language we make the distinction about understanding something fully and having a rough understanding of it.
- jlg23 9y ago
  It's the other way around: First was the concept, then the agreement which words we use to describe them. > If you skip out the part of the analogy where you actually return to the complex terminology you're simplifying, you haven't produced understanding Billions of people know what a telephone does and how to use one without understanding τῆλε ("tele-", distant) and φωνή ("phone", voice, talk, language). They all get the concept and nobody would argue that they need to understand the terminology as well. Or: I can teach you to play chess without teaching a single chess-specific term. Yes, other players will laugh at you when you call the pawns "smurfs", but when you understand how to handle your smurf-army, opponents will stop laughing after hearing you announcing "death by smurf-supported horse in 2 turns". (Though they'll definitely hate you for calling a knight a horse ;).

jmileham 9y ago

But explaining something in simple terms is a necessary step to teaching the concept. Only once the concept is understood can you put a name to it and keep climbing the ladder of abstraction. This article doesn't devalue proper terminology, it values fluency with abstractions.

samuell 9y ago
This. I tend to think a key to really understanding something, is the ability to put that "something" in to contexts at a wide variety of abstraction levels. That's what I hated the most with uni: Some professors could write 10 blackboards full of formulae, but could hardly put together a few words to explain what we were actually doing. Unsurprisingly, I don't remember much from these lectures. Fortunately that is not all professors, but it worries me how large a percent of them were like this.

usuallybaffled 9y ago

Maybe a refinement of this approach is to FIRST explain in simple terms to establish basic understanding and SECOND going deeper with technical jargon.

scott_s 9y ago

"Education is a series of small lies." Spoken by my intro to computer engineering professor, upon telling us that most real processors actually have some ternary logic. The notion here is that educating beginners about a subject is different from communication between experts. Yes, experts use jargon because it is more efficient. But, the notion here is that if you truly understand something, you should be able to find a way to explain it to a non-expert, building up from words and concepts they already understand. And, further, if you can't do that, then perhaps your understanding is not as deep as you thought it was.

Cyph0n 9y ago
> most real processors actually have some ternary logic Was he referring to the Z state? If so, it's not really ternary logic but rather a "no result" state for cases where there is a control signal involved (e.g., in a tri-state buffer).
- mod 9y ago
  So it was a small lie?
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    Not really, no. More like an unnecessary detail, especially if it was an introductory course on the subject. It's not like knowledge of the Z state will suddenly change how you would design systems.
- tlb 9y ago
  Modern CPUs have phase-locked loops generating clocks for each region of the chip. These use separate pull-up and pull-down mosfets to control the frequency, so arguably ternary. Even more non-binary things happen inside DRAM and flash memory.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    Ehh I don't believe PLLs have a ternary component at all. I'm not an expert though. DRAM is analog-based due to the fact that the core memory unit is a capacitor, so it can't be ternary (not digital). I might agree with flash though.

cle 9y ago

> If you rehash it in smaller words, just by information density alone, aren't you guaranteed to be losing some detail? Yes, but knowing which information you can lose is why it is said that you don't understand it until you can explain it. Explaining it in simple terms forces you to over-simplify, and then you have to pick which information is important and which isn't...and doing that requires a deep understanding of the subject (and your audience).

ikeyany 9y ago
You have a knack for explaining "explaining something in simple terms" in simple terms. Kudos.

cortesoft 9y ago

If you can't re-write it in assembly, you don't know how it works!

WhoBeI 9y ago

Well, yeah, but the technical detail doesn't have to remain low. When you first explain something to someone you keep it simple so that they get the broad picture, you use analogies and what not. As they learn you can start introducing more and more detail. It's about explaining in a way the recipient can understand so "simple terms" becomes "terms your recipient can understand".

SilasX 9y ago

It's not a fail if you use jargon. It's a fail if you can't explain the jargon.