30 ms·

Thank you for pointing out that the users of bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) have effectively no say in the design of the system they have to trust. This w

Thank you for pointing out that the users of bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) have effectively no say in the design of the system they have to trust. This will ultimately limit the very trust needed to keep it alive IMHO.

serg_chernata 9y ago
I would say that this is exactly why Proof of Stake seems to be in higher regard than Proof of Work for new currencies as well as Ether's eventual transition later this year. Among other reasons, of course.
- gjem97 9y ago
  Is it generally accepted that this is inevitable? Or is it going to be a SegWit/Unlimited sort of situation?
  - serg_chernata 9y ago
    PoS seems to be definitely happening for Ether.
    - gjem97 9y ago
      Could you expand on that any? What's your basis for that belief?
      - Jenya_ 9y ago
        Ethereum has a difficulty bomb (mining becomes more difficult with time). This is a form of control from developers over blockchain. If miners refuse to cooperate, they are left with the blockchain which is more difficult to mine with time (and eventually unusable). https://themerkle.com/what-is-the-ethereum-difficulty-bomb/ https://themerkle.com/what-is-the-ethereum-difficulty-bomb/
      - serg_chernata 9y ago
        Sorry, that was my conclusion from seeing tweets and commends made by Vitalik and his team. Besides the other response you received, there also seems to be a shift to PoS simply because PoW mining wastes a lot of electricity.
  - zeven7 9y ago
    It won't be like SegWit/Unlimited. The politics are very different and the technology is very different. 1. Politics. Ethereum has a leadership team which functions very differently from Bitcoin Core. For one, the creator of Ethereum is well known and outspoken. He and the other members of the Ethereum Foundation made it clear that their intention was always to move to Proof of Stake. Though there are some who may not support this move, the general community bought into the project knowing that this was the plan from the beginning. And there's a lot of trust of Vitalik. 2. Technology. Ethereum adapts much more quickly to mining difficulty than Bitcoin. Bitcoin can't survive with 90% of the hash power on one chain and 10% of the hash power on another chain. The smaller chain would take 10 hours to mine a single block and months to readjust the difficulty. It would be unusable. Ethereum has already shown its resiliency to a split during the DAO hard fork. The smaller chain adjusted quickly and survived. What this might mean is that with the change to PoS, there could be a dissenting faction that remains on PoW, and both chains will survive. This will allow the PoS chain to go ahead and push through with a split easily even without 100% support.
chii 9y ago
> users of bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) have effectively no say in the design of the system they have to trust. how is that any different to the existing currency system like credit cards and banking? And users _do_ have a say in bitcoins. Namely, they can vote with their wallet (literally and figuratively).
- marxidad 9y ago
  Banks are regulated by democratic governments.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > how is that any different to the existing currency system Fiat currency is governed by central banks, which are arms of government, and are accountable to the public in the same way as the issuing government. Obviously, the degree of accountability varies from government to government.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    Except for the Eurozone where the ECB doesn't appear to really act as an arm of anyone's government.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      Brexit demonstrates an available route to expressing disapproval of the ECB's actions.
      - arethuza 9y ago
        The UK wasn't in the Eurozone - and I've been reading Yanis Varoufakis's books about his time as the finance minister of Greece and I've been fairly shocked at how fundamentally undemocratic (not to say unreasonable) a lot of EU institutions and the likes of the IMF are. And I say that as someone who voted Remain in the Brexit referendum (note that Varoufakis actually campaigned on the Remain side in the UK).
golergka 9y ago
Depends on how you define 'users'. Miners don't just make money out of thin air; they actually help maintain the ledger and provide value to the 'users'. Nobody is stopping you from start doing it yourself, too.

serg_chernata 9y ago

I would say that this is exactly why Proof of Stake seems to be in higher regard than Proof of Work for new currencies as well as Ether's eventual transition later this year. Among other reasons, of course.

gjem97 9y ago
Is it generally accepted that this is inevitable? Or is it going to be a SegWit/Unlimited sort of situation?
- serg_chernata 9y ago
  PoS seems to be definitely happening for Ether.
  - gjem97 9y ago
    Could you expand on that any? What's your basis for that belief?
    - Jenya_ 9y ago
      Ethereum has a difficulty bomb (mining becomes more difficult with time). This is a form of control from developers over blockchain. If miners refuse to cooperate, they are left with the blockchain which is more difficult to mine with time (and eventually unusable). https://themerkle.com/what-is-the-ethereum-difficulty-bomb/ https://themerkle.com/what-is-the-ethereum-difficulty-bomb/
    - serg_chernata 9y ago
      Sorry, that was my conclusion from seeing tweets and commends made by Vitalik and his team. Besides the other response you received, there also seems to be a shift to PoS simply because PoW mining wastes a lot of electricity.
- zeven7 9y ago
  It won't be like SegWit/Unlimited. The politics are very different and the technology is very different. 1. Politics. Ethereum has a leadership team which functions very differently from Bitcoin Core. For one, the creator of Ethereum is well known and outspoken. He and the other members of the Ethereum Foundation made it clear that their intention was always to move to Proof of Stake. Though there are some who may not support this move, the general community bought into the project knowing that this was the plan from the beginning. And there's a lot of trust of Vitalik. 2. Technology. Ethereum adapts much more quickly to mining difficulty than Bitcoin. Bitcoin can't survive with 90% of the hash power on one chain and 10% of the hash power on another chain. The smaller chain would take 10 hours to mine a single block and months to readjust the difficulty. It would be unusable. Ethereum has already shown its resiliency to a split during the DAO hard fork. The smaller chain adjusted quickly and survived. What this might mean is that with the change to PoS, there could be a dissenting faction that remains on PoW, and both chains will survive. This will allow the PoS chain to go ahead and push through with a split easily even without 100% support.

chii 9y ago

> users of bitcoin (and other cryptocurrencies) have effectively no say in the design of the system they have to trust. how is that any different to the existing currency system like credit cards and banking? And users _do_ have a say in bitcoins. Namely, they can vote with their wallet (literally and figuratively).

marxidad 9y ago
Banks are regulated by democratic governments.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> how is that any different to the existing currency system Fiat currency is governed by central banks, which are arms of government, and are accountable to the public in the same way as the issuing government. Obviously, the degree of accountability varies from government to government.
- arethuza 9y ago
  Except for the Eurozone where the ECB doesn't appear to really act as an arm of anyone's government.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    Brexit demonstrates an available route to expressing disapproval of the ECB's actions.
    - arethuza 9y ago
      The UK wasn't in the Eurozone - and I've been reading Yanis Varoufakis's books about his time as the finance minister of Greece and I've been fairly shocked at how fundamentally undemocratic (not to say unreasonable) a lot of EU institutions and the likes of the IMF are. And I say that as someone who voted Remain in the Brexit referendum (note that Varoufakis actually campaigned on the Remain side in the UK).

golergka 9y ago

Depends on how you define 'users'. Miners don't just make money out of thin air; they actually help maintain the ledger and provide value to the 'users'. Nobody is stopping you from start doing it yourself, too.