17 ms·

Can you please explain a little more? I always thought Germany (and Scandinavia) to be a strong economy where although you pay a lot of taxes, the returns are e

Can you please explain a little more? I always thought Germany (and Scandinavia) to be a strong economy where although you pay a lot of taxes, the returns are extremely well in terms of childcare, hospitalization, etc.

ido 9y ago
I assume they compare it to upper-tier high-tech hubs like Silicon Valley, Boston & Seattle - where a software developer can earn well into 6 figures (and double or more of what they'd earn in Germany). But I suspect this is mostly limited to those and very few other cases (e.g. top tier doctors).
- timr 9y ago
  Yes, but for how long? And what happens after you're put to pasture? You can earn a lot more in the US when you're young (or at least, mid-career), but you'd better hope and pray that you never get sick, or laid off in late-middle age. I've never lived in Germany, so I don't know the problems with their system, but the US system is (currently) a "get yours while the getting is good" approach to life.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    Well, if you're German that means you move to Silicon Valley, make the big bucks for a few decades, then move back to Germany when your health starts to fail.
    - timr 9y ago
      That strikes me as trying to claim the benefits of a system without participating in the costs. (Unless you're suggesting that salaries are so disproportionately high in the USA that you can move here, pay all of your German taxes, and still be better off. In which case, I have to ask: what the hell is wrong with economics, and why is it leading to this obvious inefficiency? I suspect the real answer is: "you can't actually do that.")
      - mseebach 9y ago
        If you do it quite as cynically as that, yeah, that's sounds a bit dodgy - but the more common pattern, I think, and frankly more problematic for Germany, is the one where you go to Silicon Valley for a few years and try your luck, and if you're good (and lucky), make the big bucks and stay -- for all the badness of US health care, people who've made big bucks for decades are generally by a wide margin able to secure and keep really good health care. The people who aren't as lucky (and/or good) return and take up their €45k/yr careers.
        timr 9y ago
        I doubt that's a serious problem, given the odds against it happening. Seems far more likely that someone would leave Germany, earn a higher salary in the US for a while, and return as soon as a serious health threat made the disadvantages of the US system clear. Presumably Germany has some sort of system to tax imported wealth to handle these scenarios.
        pjc50 9y ago
        No, you can totally do that if you put up with the severe inconvenience of being an economic migrant for that time. (Immigration bureaucracy, distance from family, working and living in your second language, navigating an unfamiliar system, immigration bureaucracy, and the risk of being arbitrarily deported)
        timr 9y ago
        I didn't say you couldn't do it, I said it was unlikely you'd get rich in the US (true), and there's probably a system to tax you on imported wealth (as there is in the US).
      - sparkling 9y ago
        It is totaly possible to do that. The hardest part is getting a US visa.
      - Atropos 9y ago
  - jpttsn 9y ago
    That's certainly one perspective. But some people see it as less of a "get yours"/"hope"/"pray" game, and then the US system can be cast in a different light.
  - Veelox 9y ago
    I am expecting that the good times in the US will continue for 10 more years at which point I will have enough saved up to retire[0]. [0] Assume that I make 150k a year and only live on 50k a year I can put the rest into index funds. In ~10 years my money will be producing enough money so that I can quit and live on 50k a year forever. See http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... for the math/justification.
jk2323 9y ago
1. Salaries are much lower than, let's say US or Switzerland. 2. Taxes are much higher then, let's say US or Switzerland. 3. Real Estate prices are totally out of whack. So if you make 60k (a very good salary for an engineer even in a big city) and want to raise a family of four you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four. But yes, you have access to schools, universities and health care. The trend that people are leaving or looking for exit options is definitely significant accelerating.
- jhou2 9y ago
  In Germany, tuition is nearly free or minimal, especially compared to US. With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor. Like the food, German life is quite bland as well.
  - jk2323 9y ago
    "I feel people can do almost anything they want there" 'We have always done it that way and we will keep doing it that way'. There is very little chance for change and opportunity. Also, very little venture capital. I don't live in Germany but I can now afford to buy a house. The reason I can afford this is: BECAUSE I don't live in Germany. Yet, buying a house or an apartment in Germany is totally off the table. Why? 1. I disagree with the unlimited immigration into the welfare state that will make the welfare state collapse and totally changes our non-violent open society into a more violent and tribal one. 2. Real Estate or "Immobilien" or "inmuebles" how it is called in other languages. A much better word than real estate. It means "Non Mobile". And currently real estate taxes in Germany are basically zero compared with let's say New Jersey. This will change. The government will sooner of later have to tax the shit out of the real estate owners. And again, it is NON MOBILE, while you can leave, your house can't. In my opinion it would be madness to buy a house there.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    > With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor I hear that in Denmark as well, but I feel it's often accompanied by a very strong unspoken assumption around what, out of 'anything', one should want to do. Denmark is a pretty sweet deal if you have a decent income, property mortgaged to the rafters (the only real tax break is for interest payments) and a couple of kids in institution/school age (and healthy private pension savings). If that lifestyle does not appeal to you, you are going to be paying through the nose for frankly very little. This also informs the "ambition" bit. Having high ambitions is firmly in the "should not want" camp, so not a lot of people seem to have them, and the ones that do certainly keep them private if they want to considered polite company. Every year around graduation time, the newspapers have a raft of op eds on how "straight A students" are actually miserable and missing out on youth, while the mediocre students are celebrated for knowing how to live and have fun.

ido 9y ago

I assume they compare it to upper-tier high-tech hubs like Silicon Valley, Boston & Seattle - where a software developer can earn well into 6 figures (and double or more of what they'd earn in Germany). But I suspect this is mostly limited to those and very few other cases (e.g. top tier doctors).

timr 9y ago
Yes, but for how long? And what happens after you're put to pasture? You can earn a lot more in the US when you're young (or at least, mid-career), but you'd better hope and pray that you never get sick, or laid off in late-middle age. I've never lived in Germany, so I don't know the problems with their system, but the US system is (currently) a "get yours while the getting is good" approach to life.
- gozur88 9y ago
  Well, if you're German that means you move to Silicon Valley, make the big bucks for a few decades, then move back to Germany when your health starts to fail.
  - timr 9y ago
    That strikes me as trying to claim the benefits of a system without participating in the costs. (Unless you're suggesting that salaries are so disproportionately high in the USA that you can move here, pay all of your German taxes, and still be better off. In which case, I have to ask: what the hell is wrong with economics, and why is it leading to this obvious inefficiency? I suspect the real answer is: "you can't actually do that.")
    - mseebach 9y ago
      If you do it quite as cynically as that, yeah, that's sounds a bit dodgy - but the more common pattern, I think, and frankly more problematic for Germany, is the one where you go to Silicon Valley for a few years and try your luck, and if you're good (and lucky), make the big bucks and stay -- for all the badness of US health care, people who've made big bucks for decades are generally by a wide margin able to secure and keep really good health care. The people who aren't as lucky (and/or good) return and take up their €45k/yr careers.
      - timr 9y ago
        I doubt that's a serious problem, given the odds against it happening. Seems far more likely that someone would leave Germany, earn a higher salary in the US for a while, and return as soon as a serious health threat made the disadvantages of the US system clear. Presumably Germany has some sort of system to tax imported wealth to handle these scenarios.
        pjc50 9y ago
        No, you can totally do that if you put up with the severe inconvenience of being an economic migrant for that time. (Immigration bureaucracy, distance from family, working and living in your second language, navigating an unfamiliar system, immigration bureaucracy, and the risk of being arbitrarily deported)
        timr 9y ago
        I didn't say you couldn't do it, I said it was unlikely you'd get rich in the US (true), and there's probably a system to tax you on imported wealth (as there is in the US).
    - sparkling 9y ago
      It is totaly possible to do that. The hardest part is getting a US visa.
    - Atropos 9y ago
- jpttsn 9y ago
  That's certainly one perspective. But some people see it as less of a "get yours"/"hope"/"pray" game, and then the US system can be cast in a different light.
- Veelox 9y ago
  I am expecting that the good times in the US will continue for 10 more years at which point I will have enough saved up to retire[0]. [0] Assume that I make 150k a year and only live on 50k a year I can put the rest into index funds. In ~10 years my money will be producing enough money so that I can quit and live on 50k a year forever. See http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... for the math/justification.

jk2323 9y ago

1. Salaries are much lower than, let's say US or Switzerland. 2. Taxes are much higher then, let's say US or Switzerland. 3. Real Estate prices are totally out of whack. So if you make 60k (a very good salary for an engineer even in a big city) and want to raise a family of four you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four. But yes, you have access to schools, universities and health care. The trend that people are leaving or looking for exit options is definitely significant accelerating.

jhou2 9y ago
In Germany, tuition is nearly free or minimal, especially compared to US. With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor. Like the food, German life is quite bland as well.
- jk2323 9y ago
  "I feel people can do almost anything they want there" 'We have always done it that way and we will keep doing it that way'. There is very little chance for change and opportunity. Also, very little venture capital. I don't live in Germany but I can now afford to buy a house. The reason I can afford this is: BECAUSE I don't live in Germany. Yet, buying a house or an apartment in Germany is totally off the table. Why? 1. I disagree with the unlimited immigration into the welfare state that will make the welfare state collapse and totally changes our non-violent open society into a more violent and tribal one. 2. Real Estate or "Immobilien" or "inmuebles" how it is called in other languages. A much better word than real estate. It means "Non Mobile". And currently real estate taxes in Germany are basically zero compared with let's say New Jersey. This will change. The government will sooner of later have to tax the shit out of the real estate owners. And again, it is NON MOBILE, while you can leave, your house can't. In my opinion it would be madness to buy a house there.
- mseebach 9y ago
  > With the strong social net, I feel people can do almost anything they want there, depending in some part on their social status and ambitions, but they will neither get extremely rich nor extremely poor I hear that in Denmark as well, but I feel it's often accompanied by a very strong unspoken assumption around what, out of 'anything', one should want to do. Denmark is a pretty sweet deal if you have a decent income, property mortgaged to the rafters (the only real tax break is for interest payments) and a couple of kids in institution/school age (and healthy private pension savings). If that lifestyle does not appeal to you, you are going to be paying through the nose for frankly very little. This also informs the "ambition" bit. Having high ambitions is firmly in the "should not want" camp, so not a lot of people seem to have them, and the ones that do certainly keep them private if they want to considered polite company. Every year around graduation time, the newspapers have a raft of op eds on how "straight A students" are actually miserable and missing out on youth, while the mediocre students are celebrated for knowing how to live and have fun.