19 ms·

Being born and working in a country with a strong social system, this is just another positive for my current lifestyle: Just earning enough to sustain myself a

by Joe-Z 9y ago

Being born and working in a country with a strong social system, this is just another positive for my current lifestyle: Just earning enough to sustain myself and paying only minimal taxes so as not to waste anything on benefits I will never get back! Now I made myself sad...

a_bonobo 9y ago
If everybody behaves like you then the above comment becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...
- deusofnull 9y ago
  Maybe, but the blame for this situation can't only be placed on the young who see the system failures approaching. Maybe a system built to provide care to its creators is fatally flawed if it is largely dependent on the consent and participation of children and unborn people of the future? At which point I would like to point out that this world can likely provide for everyone were the economic ideology focused on sustainability and maintaining (at least) baseline human resource needs instead of demanding permanent growth, potmarked by boom-bust crises every 10-20 years.
ruirr 9y ago
I was also born in a country "with a strong social system". The so called social system is in shambles, and contributing to it is basically contributing to a ponzi scam.
- taejo 9y ago
  I think that's what grandparent is getting at. Better to make use of the social system by working little or not at all, now, while it's still paying out, than to contribute now and not get any pension later.
usuallybaffled 9y ago
How can it have a strong social system with minimal taxes?
- kgwgk 9y ago
  I think his point is that he avoids paying high taxes by not earning much.
  - danbolt 9y ago
    Do other people feel this way in regards to social benefits? At least in my line of work, earning more money has much higher value than earning less and having assistance.
    - markvdb 9y ago
      An example from Belgium. Imagine you're an employee and earning 38k€ a year including bonuses. Now you want to start a side activity as an independent contractor. You pay about 53.5% of taxes on this amount. On what is left after taxation, you pay 20.5% social contributions that you get literally nothing in return for. If you choose the cheapest "social contributions" provider. That means you get to keep about 36.96€ for every 100€ in pretax profit. Don't you think this steers people in different directions?
      - ENGNR 9y ago
        Wouldn't the equivalent contractor wage factor those costs in though, plus a risk premium for short term work ideally
        jpttsn 9y ago
        What makes you think it would?
        RugnirViking 9y ago
Roritharr 9y ago
I have to agree. I see this attitude in ever increasing numbers of German developers as our High-Tax System even openly admits to all the benefits you won't receive. The amount of taxes one has to pay compared to the security one is offered feels strongly out of whack for the 60-200k/yearly family salary bracket. There is braindrain, but also Stockholm Syndrome. I oftentimes see discussions between developers where ones that have left Germany's system get attacked behind their back for being so "irresponsible" and missing out on security systems here, while enjoying, after about two to three years of saving money elsewhere a lifestyle of financial security that is leagues above everything the german social security can offer. There are lots of reasons to stay in Germany, but social security and finances aren't ones if you are a talented developer that is just looking for a good life. It's a strange tension currently, I'm unsure where this will lead in the long run.
- tushartyagi 9y ago
  Can you please explain a little more? I always thought Germany (and Scandinavia) to be a strong economy where although you pay a lot of taxes, the returns are extremely well in terms of childcare, hospitalization, etc.
  - ido 9y ago
    I assume they compare it to upper-tier high-tech hubs like Silicon Valley, Boston & Seattle - where a software developer can earn well into 6 figures (and double or more of what they'd earn in Germany). But I suspect this is mostly limited to those and very few other cases (e.g. top tier doctors).
    - timr 9y ago
      Yes, but for how long? And what happens after you're put to pasture? You can earn a lot more in the US when you're young (or at least, mid-career), but you'd better hope and pray that you never get sick, or laid off in late-middle age. I've never lived in Germany, so I don't know the problems with their system, but the US system is (currently) a "get yours while the getting is good" approach to life.

by Joe-Z 9y ago

a_bonobo 9y ago

If everybody behaves like you then the above comment becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...

deusofnull 9y ago
Maybe, but the blame for this situation can't only be placed on the young who see the system failures approaching. Maybe a system built to provide care to its creators is fatally flawed if it is largely dependent on the consent and participation of children and unborn people of the future? At which point I would like to point out that this world can likely provide for everyone were the economic ideology focused on sustainability and maintaining (at least) baseline human resource needs instead of demanding permanent growth, potmarked by boom-bust crises every 10-20 years.

ruirr 9y ago

I was also born in a country "with a strong social system". The so called social system is in shambles, and contributing to it is basically contributing to a ponzi scam.

taejo 9y ago
I think that's what grandparent is getting at. Better to make use of the social system by working little or not at all, now, while it's still paying out, than to contribute now and not get any pension later.

usuallybaffled 9y ago

How can it have a strong social system with minimal taxes?

kgwgk 9y ago
I think his point is that he avoids paying high taxes by not earning much.
- danbolt 9y ago
  Do other people feel this way in regards to social benefits? At least in my line of work, earning more money has much higher value than earning less and having assistance.
  - markvdb 9y ago
    An example from Belgium. Imagine you're an employee and earning 38k€ a year including bonuses. Now you want to start a side activity as an independent contractor. You pay about 53.5% of taxes on this amount. On what is left after taxation, you pay 20.5% social contributions that you get literally nothing in return for. If you choose the cheapest "social contributions" provider. That means you get to keep about 36.96€ for every 100€ in pretax profit. Don't you think this steers people in different directions?
    - ENGNR 9y ago
      Wouldn't the equivalent contractor wage factor those costs in though, plus a risk premium for short term work ideally
      - jpttsn 9y ago
        What makes you think it would?
        RugnirViking 9y ago

Roritharr 9y ago

I have to agree. I see this attitude in ever increasing numbers of German developers as our High-Tax System even openly admits to all the benefits you won't receive. The amount of taxes one has to pay compared to the security one is offered feels strongly out of whack for the 60-200k/yearly family salary bracket. There is braindrain, but also Stockholm Syndrome. I oftentimes see discussions between developers where ones that have left Germany's system get attacked behind their back for being so "irresponsible" and missing out on security systems here, while enjoying, after about two to three years of saving money elsewhere a lifestyle of financial security that is leagues above everything the german social security can offer. There are lots of reasons to stay in Germany, but social security and finances aren't ones if you are a talented developer that is just looking for a good life. It's a strange tension currently, I'm unsure where this will lead in the long run.

tushartyagi 9y ago
Can you please explain a little more? I always thought Germany (and Scandinavia) to be a strong economy where although you pay a lot of taxes, the returns are extremely well in terms of childcare, hospitalization, etc.
- ido 9y ago
  I assume they compare it to upper-tier high-tech hubs like Silicon Valley, Boston & Seattle - where a software developer can earn well into 6 figures (and double or more of what they'd earn in Germany). But I suspect this is mostly limited to those and very few other cases (e.g. top tier doctors).
  - timr 9y ago
    Yes, but for how long? And what happens after you're put to pasture? You can earn a lot more in the US when you're young (or at least, mid-career), but you'd better hope and pray that you never get sick, or laid off in late-middle age. I've never lived in Germany, so I don't know the problems with their system, but the US system is (currently) a "get yours while the getting is good" approach to life.