8 ms·

Former JSOC dude here. Circumstances requiring engaging with pistols == bad day for everyone, so only a few things matter. Front sight focus (which implies main

Former JSOC dude here. Circumstances requiring engaging with pistols == bad day for everyone, so only a few things matter. Front sight focus (which implies maintaining equidistance from the rear sight posts), both eyes open, fast presentation, parallel grip, smooth trigger pull, reacquire, repeat as necessary. And optical sights = more things that can break / run out of batteries / fall off and make noise / etc etc.

gadders 9y ago
You may be former JSOC, but I've played Call of Duty.
- binarytransform 9y ago
  Did we just become best friends? Someone fire up the GoldenEye. Slappers only!
  - gadders 9y ago
    TBH, I was lying for comedic effect. I mostly play Borderlands 2 now. I don't like anything with too much strategy. //edit// Sorry if that sounds too rude. Email in my profile if you want my Steam ID.
    - pc86 9y ago
      > Call of Duty > strategy You've outed yourself, I'm afraid.
      - gadders 9y ago
        Maybe strategy isn't the right word. Maybe stealth would have been better.
    - gkya 9y ago
      CoD became so complex... CoD2 is the only game I ever liked. Maybe I'm too stupidbut I don't know, I can't play any other fps.
  - striking 9y ago
    Totally OT, but there's a version of GoldenEye with mouse and keyboard controls so you can play it on PC at 60FPS with multiplayer. I won't link to it here but I'm sure an interested person could find it pretty easily.
Inconel 9y ago
I don't mean to turn this into a CoD/Splinter Cell nerdfest, but while I've seen many vets post on HN, I don't recall anyone from JSOC doing so, do you mind sharing anything about your experiences? Assuming there is anything you are able to share freely. Does what you did in JSOC have anything to do with your current career? Are there any skills or lessons that you have found particularly useful in your civilian life? Obviously disregard any of this if you don't feel comfortable talking about it.
- binarytransform 9y ago
  Don't want to derail the thread too much so I'll keep it short. I did technical "things" that correlate to my current civilian career. Lessons: biggest one was to eat humble pie and realize past performance =/= future success when different domains are involved (mil vs civ). Useful things: I'm generally pretty chill when things are going wrong. I.e. client meeting goes horribly -> "Hey at least we're not in X country getting shot at / how do we optimize for next time / etc."
  - Inconel 9y ago
    I imagine after being in that kind of environment most "crises" at your civilian work seem quite mundane. I appreciate your response and if you ever feel like sharing more I'm sure most here wouldn't mind the occasional derailed thread.
    - JshWright 9y ago
      This has certainly been my experience (from a slightly different background). I work full time as a developer, but part time as a firefighter/paramedic. Nothing is _literally_ on fire? Meh...
  - gadders 9y ago
    Please do derail the thread. The thread is interesting, but so would your input be.
    - 9y ago
duncan_bayne 9y ago
> Circumstances requiring engaging with pistols == bad day for everyone I've shot a bit, but only rimfire long guns, air rifles, and air pistols. The pistols were harder to shoot by a _long_ margin, and I can imagine it'd get orders of magnitude harder w/ more recoil, noise to promote flinching, etc. etc. So with your comments in mind, and my own limited experience, do you have any idea why every Police-critter here in Australia is armed with a pistol, rather than something easier to use? I mean, in my head it looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHEhMKQhGKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHEhMKQhGKE "It feels like you're shooting a toy gun sometimes" (similar to my experience w/ a suppressed semi-auto .22LR) vs. this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXeYAfMeaBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXeYAfMeaBY The only things I can think of in favour of the pistol: * Cheaper (maybe?) * Less intrusive / easier to carry (for the 99.99% of the time when you _don't_ need it). * Less intimidating (for those who don't know how hard it is to hit a moving target w/ a pistol ;) ).
- binarytransform 9y ago
  I have no LEO experience but I'd imagine increased mobility, decreased chances of rounds exiting the target and hitting an innocent bystander, and cost are the primary reasons.
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Concerning over-penetration, that's largely a function of ammunition. Hollow-point rounds from a submachine gun don't (practically speaking) over-penetrate any more than those fired from a handgun.
    - TallGuyShort 9y ago
      If the concern is hitting something behind your target that you're not supposed to, over-penetration would actually be pretty low on my list of concerns about a submachine gun.
      - omginternets 9y ago
lostboys67 9y ago
That reminds me of the quote for we where soldiers once and young "Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: I think you oughta get yourself an M-16. Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Sir, if the time comes I need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground. "
- pps43 9y ago
  When the time comes he needs one, it's already too late to learn how to use it.
  - lostboys67 9y ago
    Well that's why special forces carry a pistol and practice with them as back up and probably a kukri if the pics from op Herrick are anything to go by
fivestar 9y ago
I have not personally been in a gunfight (thankfully) but a couple different people I know have. It went something like this: "Oh shit" followed by the gun being drawn and fired in very close quarters with no aiming whatsoever because the person/people was/were knife distance away. I know that's not how all encounters go down, but my takeaway from these stories is that contact distance is the norm and you should expect to fire a lot of rounds and not achieve very good hits if any. Bad day indeed.
- jabl 9y ago
  I vaguely recall reading somewhere about some study where they found out that when the police fire their pistols, at a range of 5 meters they hit about 50% of the time. Having spent a fair amount of time in my youth shooting with a BB pistol in my parents garage, I find the above statistic entirely believable. Shooting a pistol accurately is much more difficult than it looks, so I can certainly imagine that in a high stress situation where your own life may be on the line you'll make simple mistakes that cause you to miss..
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    even with a rifle, in a stable position, shooting a moving target is extremely hard while popular culture makes it look trivial.
    - jabl 9y ago
      Over here moose hunting is quite popular; to keep their moose hunting license every hunter needs to pass a test (every year, IIRC) that involves hitting a moving target. Most hunters pass this test without much difficulty. Of course, on the range the distance is known (100m, IIRC), and the target moves at a constant and known speed, so one knows how much lead is needed. Still, AFAIU in the wild the results are decent.
  - pps43 9y ago
    On the other extreme, top Steel Challenge competitors can consistently shoot 5 different targets in 2 seconds, starting with hands above shoulders.
justin66 9y ago
> And optical sights = more things that can break / run out of batteries / fall off and make noise / etc etc. If you're talking about a pistol, the right Trijicon optic might easily be the most reliable part of the weapon. The issue is that is really difficult to use a handgun with optics well. Intuitively, people might think it makes the gun easier to use, but it's a feature that can really magnify your mistakes.

gadders 9y ago

You may be former JSOC, but I've played Call of Duty.

binarytransform 9y ago
Did we just become best friends? Someone fire up the GoldenEye. Slappers only!
- gadders 9y ago
  TBH, I was lying for comedic effect. I mostly play Borderlands 2 now. I don't like anything with too much strategy. //edit// Sorry if that sounds too rude. Email in my profile if you want my Steam ID.
  - pc86 9y ago
    > Call of Duty > strategy You've outed yourself, I'm afraid.
    - gadders 9y ago
      Maybe strategy isn't the right word. Maybe stealth would have been better.
  - gkya 9y ago
    CoD became so complex... CoD2 is the only game I ever liked. Maybe I'm too stupidbut I don't know, I can't play any other fps.
- striking 9y ago
  Totally OT, but there's a version of GoldenEye with mouse and keyboard controls so you can play it on PC at 60FPS with multiplayer. I won't link to it here but I'm sure an interested person could find it pretty easily.

Inconel 9y ago

I don't mean to turn this into a CoD/Splinter Cell nerdfest, but while I've seen many vets post on HN, I don't recall anyone from JSOC doing so, do you mind sharing anything about your experiences? Assuming there is anything you are able to share freely. Does what you did in JSOC have anything to do with your current career? Are there any skills or lessons that you have found particularly useful in your civilian life? Obviously disregard any of this if you don't feel comfortable talking about it.

binarytransform 9y ago
Don't want to derail the thread too much so I'll keep it short. I did technical "things" that correlate to my current civilian career. Lessons: biggest one was to eat humble pie and realize past performance =/= future success when different domains are involved (mil vs civ). Useful things: I'm generally pretty chill when things are going wrong. I.e. client meeting goes horribly -> "Hey at least we're not in X country getting shot at / how do we optimize for next time / etc."
- Inconel 9y ago
  I imagine after being in that kind of environment most "crises" at your civilian work seem quite mundane. I appreciate your response and if you ever feel like sharing more I'm sure most here wouldn't mind the occasional derailed thread.
  - JshWright 9y ago
    This has certainly been my experience (from a slightly different background). I work full time as a developer, but part time as a firefighter/paramedic. Nothing is _literally_ on fire? Meh...
- gadders 9y ago
  Please do derail the thread. The thread is interesting, but so would your input be.
  - 9y ago

duncan_bayne 9y ago

> Circumstances requiring engaging with pistols == bad day for everyone I've shot a bit, but only rimfire long guns, air rifles, and air pistols. The pistols were harder to shoot by a _long_ margin, and I can imagine it'd get orders of magnitude harder w/ more recoil, noise to promote flinching, etc. etc. So with your comments in mind, and my own limited experience, do you have any idea why every Police-critter here in Australia is armed with a pistol, rather than something easier to use? I mean, in my head it looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHEhMKQhGKE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHEhMKQhGKE "It feels like you're shooting a toy gun sometimes" (similar to my experience w/ a suppressed semi-auto .22LR) vs. this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXeYAfMeaBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXeYAfMeaBY The only things I can think of in favour of the pistol: * Cheaper (maybe?) * Less intrusive / easier to carry (for the 99.99% of the time when you _don't_ need it). * Less intimidating (for those who don't know how hard it is to hit a moving target w/ a pistol ;) ).

binarytransform 9y ago
I have no LEO experience but I'd imagine increased mobility, decreased chances of rounds exiting the target and hitting an innocent bystander, and cost are the primary reasons.
- omginternets 9y ago
  Concerning over-penetration, that's largely a function of ammunition. Hollow-point rounds from a submachine gun don't (practically speaking) over-penetrate any more than those fired from a handgun.
  - TallGuyShort 9y ago
    If the concern is hitting something behind your target that you're not supposed to, over-penetration would actually be pretty low on my list of concerns about a submachine gun.
    - omginternets 9y ago

lostboys67 9y ago

That reminds me of the quote for we where soldiers once and young "Lt. Colonel Hal Moore: I think you oughta get yourself an M-16. Sergeant Major Basil Plumley: Sir, if the time comes I need one, there'll be plenty lying on the ground. "

pps43 9y ago
When the time comes he needs one, it's already too late to learn how to use it.
- lostboys67 9y ago
  Well that's why special forces carry a pistol and practice with them as back up and probably a kukri if the pics from op Herrick are anything to go by

fivestar 9y ago

I have not personally been in a gunfight (thankfully) but a couple different people I know have. It went something like this: "Oh shit" followed by the gun being drawn and fired in very close quarters with no aiming whatsoever because the person/people was/were knife distance away. I know that's not how all encounters go down, but my takeaway from these stories is that contact distance is the norm and you should expect to fire a lot of rounds and not achieve very good hits if any. Bad day indeed.

jabl 9y ago
I vaguely recall reading somewhere about some study where they found out that when the police fire their pistols, at a range of 5 meters they hit about 50% of the time. Having spent a fair amount of time in my youth shooting with a BB pistol in my parents garage, I find the above statistic entirely believable. Shooting a pistol accurately is much more difficult than it looks, so I can certainly imagine that in a high stress situation where your own life may be on the line you'll make simple mistakes that cause you to miss..
- ekianjo 9y ago
  even with a rifle, in a stable position, shooting a moving target is extremely hard while popular culture makes it look trivial.
  - jabl 9y ago
    Over here moose hunting is quite popular; to keep their moose hunting license every hunter needs to pass a test (every year, IIRC) that involves hitting a moving target. Most hunters pass this test without much difficulty. Of course, on the range the distance is known (100m, IIRC), and the target moves at a constant and known speed, so one knows how much lead is needed. Still, AFAIU in the wild the results are decent.
- pps43 9y ago
  On the other extreme, top Steel Challenge competitors can consistently shoot 5 different targets in 2 seconds, starting with hands above shoulders.

justin66 9y ago

> And optical sights = more things that can break / run out of batteries / fall off and make noise / etc etc. If you're talking about a pistol, the right Trijicon optic might easily be the most reliable part of the weapon. The issue is that is really difficult to use a handgun with optics well. Intuitively, people might think it makes the gun easier to use, but it's a feature that can really magnify your mistakes.