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Honestly was expecting a lot more, considering the salaries people throw around on Hacker News. Using http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of

Honestly was expecting a lot more, considering the salaries people throw around on Hacker News. Using http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-l... the adjusted value for $136,000 in SF to where I live in New York is a decent chunk less. Especially being in a DevOps/Systems role, and not a Software Dev one.

ryandrake 9y ago
Everyone on HN makes $200K+, drives a BMW and has a supermodel for a partner. Whenever salary comes up, there's always someone here who knows someone whose brother's girlfriend's room-mate makes $400K at Google, and therefore it's normal for a Software Engineer to make this much. The averages in this spreadsheet seem to agree roughly with average/median for the Bay Area as reported by Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2]. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...
- ben_jones 9y ago
  There is also a network affect where talking up people you perceive to be like yourself, i.e. software developers, entrepreneurs, silicon valley in general, makes oneself feel more important and respected. Like I would never admit that when I first came to the Bay Area I took an internship at a start-up paying $500 a month. That would just insinuate that I'm a poor engineer.
  - overcast 9y ago
    We're on to you Ben Jones!
- dsacco 9y ago
  > it's normal for a Software Engineer to make this much Yeah I wouldn't say "normal" (how should we quantify that?), but they do exist. Most engineers at Google, Facebook, etc. don't pass the senior level, and that's the last engineering rung everyone is expected to at least achieve. But if you do know staff or senior staff engineers at Google and Facebook working in NYC or SF, it is disproportionately likely that they are earning in excess of $300k/year between salary, bonus and stock grants. I know people like that directly, and I also know undergrads who are receiving between $120-$150k/year in coastal cities in total compensation offers amortized over four years. People probably aren't lying on Hacker News, the medium just lends itself to reporting bias. Large forums like this have enough participants that I'm not really surprised when 10 or so people come into a thread and claim to earn something like half a million per year. It looks outlandish but there is a vast swath of engineers who are just not speaking up; for the distribution, it's probably about right. It's not as if people are claiming these salaries as base compensation before bonus and stock.
  - pc86 9y ago
    > in total compensation offers amortized over four years. Which is an incredibly disingenuous way to phrase it. As a new graduate you can't pay rent with stock grants that vest in 48 months. The value of $1 worth of stock 4 year from now is work a small fraction of $1 in someone's paycheck today, especially when they're just starting out. That $120k "in coastal cities" (just say NYC/SF) is closer to $75-80k in cash compensation, before discretionary bonus, which means in San Francisco you've got a 2-hour one way commute from your studio with 4 roommates. And what's the average tenure of someone at a tech company these days? A year and half, maybe two? So your 4-year average compensation including stock grants, discretionary bonuses, free beer and catered food, etc is still well above average when you consider many people won't get half of what needs to vest.
    - hlc 9y ago
      Almost all new grad offers vest 25% of equity in one year, then it is typically monthly, quarterly at most.
- akhilcacharya 9y ago
  Fwiw, it's very possible to make ~190k cash out of school. Just get a job at IMO.im.
- jbtule 9y ago
  Glassdoor has an entry level listing: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-entry-level-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,43.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-entry-level...
- hlc 9y ago
  If you are staff engineer or above, you are almost certainly making > 400k in total comp if you are in a high cost of living area. Big part of that is due to the fact that if you are staff engineer or above, you've been at google for awhile, and google stock has done very well.
mahyarm 9y ago
Where do you live? I did brooklyn -> oakland and it said that oakland is %15 cheaper. These are jr. dev salaries
- overcast 9y ago
  Rochester 43.76% cheaper. Super cheap living here, tons of good food, cocktails, great lakes, and 15 minutes to get anywhere across the entire city.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Are you guys still scraping ice off your windshields? Usually that stops around June, am I right? :-)
    - overcast 9y ago
      It's actually pretty damn hot here this week, 90 and humid as hell right now. But yes, long winters, but noticeably milder the last few years. Fall is the bomb though.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      All the more reason to work remotely! (You can also probably afford a house with a garage out here...) That said, last two ski seasons sucked.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Are computers, cars, overseas trips, etc...43.76% cheaper also?
    - JBReefer 9y ago
      Fully loaded cost of cars absolutely are, when you include parking, tickets, insurance, bump and tap damage, etc. Keeping a car in a megacity is usually around $10k a year, from experience with both it's dramatically cheaper in upstate New York.
themagician 9y ago
You shouldn't. Everyone lies about salary or includes their options at some fictions value as part of their compensation. The reality is that the number of people making over $200k is just not that many. Very senior people and directors of certain departments, sure. And you've got some $250k+ VIPs out there. Some. For everyone else, even those in the Bay Area, it caps around $180k, or $10k/mo after tax. Stay for long enough and you might get a nice chunk of change you can put towards retirement, assuming that the stock is still flying high at the time you can actually do something with it. The $250k engineer is a myth. By the time you are making $250k you aren't writing code anymore. In fact, you may have never written code in your life. You're a director, VP or C-level executive of an engineering department.
- dsacco 9y ago
  > The $250k engineer is a myth. By the time you are making $250k you aren't writing code anymore. In fact, you may have never written code in your life. You're a director, VP or C-level executive of an engineering department. Large tech companies have ladders for both engineering and management. There's nothing inconceivable about earning well in excess of $250k/year and writing code. I'm not going to lie and say it's achievable for everyone, but your perspective is a very limiting one. A lot of people (in absolute terms) do the thing you're claiming is a myth at large public and private tech companies every year.
  - themagician 9y ago
    No, a lot of people don't. A few people do. Small consultancies and independent app developers can bring in $250k+, but not necessarily year over year. And they are usually doing a lot more than just engineering. Maybe I should clarify: The notion of a $250k+ engineering "salary" as normal is a myth. I live in San Francisco an I don't actually know a single person who falls into this bucket. I know a bunch of people at startups who pull that down, but not sustainably. A few people at FB and Google who cleared that much the first year if you include the signing bonus and/or account for all the options they might receive some day in years 1-2. The only person I know who actually has a $250k+ salary as an engineer works at Amazon in Seattle, but he doesn't even code anymore.

ryandrake 9y ago

Everyone on HN makes $200K+, drives a BMW and has a supermodel for a partner. Whenever salary comes up, there's always someone here who knows someone whose brother's girlfriend's room-mate makes $400K at Google, and therefore it's normal for a Software Engineer to make this much. The averages in this spreadsheet seem to agree roughly with average/median for the Bay Area as reported by Glassdoor[1] and Payscale[2]. 1: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-en... 2: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary/a5e48575/San-Francisco-CA http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer/Sa...

ben_jones 9y ago
There is also a network affect where talking up people you perceive to be like yourself, i.e. software developers, entrepreneurs, silicon valley in general, makes oneself feel more important and respected. Like I would never admit that when I first came to the Bay Area I took an internship at a start-up paying $500 a month. That would just insinuate that I'm a poor engineer.
- overcast 9y ago
  We're on to you Ben Jones!
dsacco 9y ago
> it's normal for a Software Engineer to make this much Yeah I wouldn't say "normal" (how should we quantify that?), but they do exist. Most engineers at Google, Facebook, etc. don't pass the senior level, and that's the last engineering rung everyone is expected to at least achieve. But if you do know staff or senior staff engineers at Google and Facebook working in NYC or SF, it is disproportionately likely that they are earning in excess of $300k/year between salary, bonus and stock grants. I know people like that directly, and I also know undergrads who are receiving between $120-$150k/year in coastal cities in total compensation offers amortized over four years. People probably aren't lying on Hacker News, the medium just lends itself to reporting bias. Large forums like this have enough participants that I'm not really surprised when 10 or so people come into a thread and claim to earn something like half a million per year. It looks outlandish but there is a vast swath of engineers who are just not speaking up; for the distribution, it's probably about right. It's not as if people are claiming these salaries as base compensation before bonus and stock.
- pc86 9y ago
  > in total compensation offers amortized over four years. Which is an incredibly disingenuous way to phrase it. As a new graduate you can't pay rent with stock grants that vest in 48 months. The value of $1 worth of stock 4 year from now is work a small fraction of $1 in someone's paycheck today, especially when they're just starting out. That $120k "in coastal cities" (just say NYC/SF) is closer to $75-80k in cash compensation, before discretionary bonus, which means in San Francisco you've got a 2-hour one way commute from your studio with 4 roommates. And what's the average tenure of someone at a tech company these days? A year and half, maybe two? So your 4-year average compensation including stock grants, discretionary bonuses, free beer and catered food, etc is still well above average when you consider many people won't get half of what needs to vest.
  - hlc 9y ago
    Almost all new grad offers vest 25% of equity in one year, then it is typically monthly, quarterly at most.
akhilcacharya 9y ago
Fwiw, it's very possible to make ~190k cash out of school. Just get a job at IMO.im.
jbtule 9y ago
Glassdoor has an entry level listing: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-entry-level-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,43.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-entry-level...
hlc 9y ago
If you are staff engineer or above, you are almost certainly making > 400k in total comp if you are in a high cost of living area. Big part of that is due to the fact that if you are staff engineer or above, you've been at google for awhile, and google stock has done very well.

mahyarm 9y ago

Where do you live? I did brooklyn -> oakland and it said that oakland is %15 cheaper. These are jr. dev salaries

overcast 9y ago
Rochester 43.76% cheaper. Super cheap living here, tons of good food, cocktails, great lakes, and 15 minutes to get anywhere across the entire city.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  Are you guys still scraping ice off your windshields? Usually that stops around June, am I right? :-)
  - overcast 9y ago
    It's actually pretty damn hot here this week, 90 and humid as hell right now. But yes, long winters, but noticeably milder the last few years. Fall is the bomb though.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    All the more reason to work remotely! (You can also probably afford a house with a garage out here...) That said, last two ski seasons sucked.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Are computers, cars, overseas trips, etc...43.76% cheaper also?
  - JBReefer 9y ago
    Fully loaded cost of cars absolutely are, when you include parking, tickets, insurance, bump and tap damage, etc. Keeping a car in a megacity is usually around $10k a year, from experience with both it's dramatically cheaper in upstate New York.

themagician 9y ago

You shouldn't. Everyone lies about salary or includes their options at some fictions value as part of their compensation. The reality is that the number of people making over $200k is just not that many. Very senior people and directors of certain departments, sure. And you've got some $250k+ VIPs out there. Some. For everyone else, even those in the Bay Area, it caps around $180k, or $10k/mo after tax. Stay for long enough and you might get a nice chunk of change you can put towards retirement, assuming that the stock is still flying high at the time you can actually do something with it. The $250k engineer is a myth. By the time you are making $250k you aren't writing code anymore. In fact, you may have never written code in your life. You're a director, VP or C-level executive of an engineering department.

dsacco 9y ago
> The $250k engineer is a myth. By the time you are making $250k you aren't writing code anymore. In fact, you may have never written code in your life. You're a director, VP or C-level executive of an engineering department. Large tech companies have ladders for both engineering and management. There's nothing inconceivable about earning well in excess of $250k/year and writing code. I'm not going to lie and say it's achievable for everyone, but your perspective is a very limiting one. A lot of people (in absolute terms) do the thing you're claiming is a myth at large public and private tech companies every year.
- themagician 9y ago
  No, a lot of people don't. A few people do. Small consultancies and independent app developers can bring in $250k+, but not necessarily year over year. And they are usually doing a lot more than just engineering. Maybe I should clarify: The notion of a $250k+ engineering "salary" as normal is a myth. I live in San Francisco an I don't actually know a single person who falls into this bucket. I know a bunch of people at startups who pull that down, but not sustainably. A few people at FB and Google who cleared that much the first year if you include the signing bonus and/or account for all the options they might receive some day in years 1-2. The only person I know who actually has a $250k+ salary as an engineer works at Amazon in Seattle, but he doesn't even code anymore.