4 ms·

NIMBYism exists because home ownership is basically the most accessible mechanism to grow personal wealth in the US. People are not willing to risk their financ

NIMBYism exists because home ownership is basically the most accessible mechanism to grow personal wealth in the US. People are not willing to risk their financial stability and future by allowing basically anything they view as a threat to their primary wealth generation asset in life. More housing, bad views, whatever all challenge people's bottom line.

rwallace 9y ago
That is indeed what such people believe to be their motive, but they have forgotten something very important: when you start a war of all against all, retaliation can take any form, not just the same form you used. Previous poster remarked concisely that NIMBYism is incompatible with a high-trust society; once that unfolds, the dream of 'growing personal wealth' at everyone else's expense will become a hollow victory indeed.
- zkms 9y ago
  It also need not be everyone who fights against {cell towers, high-density housing, clothes lines, airports, railways, wind farms} -- the relevant laws/regulations/procedures let a sufficiently motivated minority have a pathological amount of influence when it comes to obstructionism. For example, there's a pathologically minuscule number of people who file the overwhelming majority of airport noise complaints; 6852 out of 8760 complaints for DCA in 2015 came from one single person, and this pattern holds for many airports: https://www.mercatus.org/sites/default/files/screen_shot_2016-10-17_at_9.17.00_am.png https://www.mercatus.org/sites/default/files/screen_shot_201... How many excessive tonnes of fuel burned in circuitous flight paths, how many years of administrative work wasted, how many near misses are we risking -- just to please this sort of goddamn wingnut who makes 18 fucking airport noise complaints literally every single day? This is what NIMBY nonsense looks like.
jogjayr 9y ago
> NIMBYism exists because home ownership is basically the most accessible mechanism to grow personal wealth in the US. That has to be due a lack of financial education and knowledge of what options exist to grow personal wealth. You need at least $50k to put 20% down on a median US home. You need only $2.5k to start an index fund account with Vanguard. Guess which one will give you a better return on average and is more liquid?
- bzbarsky 9y ago
  > Guess which one will give you a better return on average Hard to say. Depends on inflation levels. In particular, a home is one of the few leveraged investments most people can make. And if inflation is somewhat high (which it hasn't been recently), a leveraged investment that just grows at the rate of inflation can beat out an index fund that grows several percent above the rate of inflation but is not leveraged. Just to put numbers to this, if you are levered 5 to 1 (20% down), inflation is 3%, home price grows at inflation, you are getting a 15% nominal return on your investment in the home, and a 12% real return. For a more realistic estimate, say leverage is 4 to 1 (you've paid off part of the mortgage), inflation at 2% as it has been recently. Still 6% real return. I will grant that the index fund is more liquid, obviously.
  - jogjayr 9y ago
    > Just to put numbers to this, if you are levered 5 to 1 (20% down), inflation is 3%, home price grows at inflation, you are getting a 15% nominal return on your investment in the home, and a 12% real return. I'm sorry I didn't follow that calculation perfectly. I (sort of) understand the part where you get a 15% nominal ROI for 20% down. But if you're paying your mortgage every month you're leveraged less and less each successive month right (as you pay off principal and accumulate equity)? Would that change the calculation? Valuation and ROI (beyond simple stuff) is not one of my strengths unfortunately. > Hard to say. Depends on inflation levels. And if inflation is somewhat high (which it hasn't been recently), That's what I was getting at with "on average". Inflation hasn't been high for quite a while. I will grant you that it's not cut-and-dry in favor of index funds under all circumstances.
    - lmm 9y ago
      > if you're paying your mortgage every month you're leveraged less and less each successive month right (as you pay off principal and accumulate equity)? Would that change the calculation? Yes. But you can keep your leverage ratio the same by upsizing every few years and remortgaging when you do. As you get towards retirement you generally delever but that's what you would want to be doing anyway (sacrificing some return for lower risk).

rwallace 9y ago

That is indeed what such people believe to be their motive, but they have forgotten something very important: when you start a war of all against all, retaliation can take any form, not just the same form you used. Previous poster remarked concisely that NIMBYism is incompatible with a high-trust society; once that unfolds, the dream of 'growing personal wealth' at everyone else's expense will become a hollow victory indeed.

zkms 9y ago
It also need not be everyone who fights against {cell towers, high-density housing, clothes lines, airports, railways, wind farms} -- the relevant laws/regulations/procedures let a sufficiently motivated minority have a pathological amount of influence when it comes to obstructionism. For example, there's a pathologically minuscule number of people who file the overwhelming majority of airport noise complaints; 6852 out of 8760 complaints for DCA in 2015 came from one single person, and this pattern holds for many airports: https://www.mercatus.org/sites/default/files/screen_shot_2016-10-17_at_9.17.00_am.png https://www.mercatus.org/sites/default/files/screen_shot_201... How many excessive tonnes of fuel burned in circuitous flight paths, how many years of administrative work wasted, how many near misses are we risking -- just to please this sort of goddamn wingnut who makes 18 fucking airport noise complaints literally every single day? This is what NIMBY nonsense looks like.

jogjayr 9y ago

> NIMBYism exists because home ownership is basically the most accessible mechanism to grow personal wealth in the US. That has to be due a lack of financial education and knowledge of what options exist to grow personal wealth. You need at least $50k to put 20% down on a median US home. You need only $2.5k to start an index fund account with Vanguard. Guess which one will give you a better return on average and is more liquid?

bzbarsky 9y ago
> Guess which one will give you a better return on average Hard to say. Depends on inflation levels. In particular, a home is one of the few leveraged investments most people can make. And if inflation is somewhat high (which it hasn't been recently), a leveraged investment that just grows at the rate of inflation can beat out an index fund that grows several percent above the rate of inflation but is not leveraged. Just to put numbers to this, if you are levered 5 to 1 (20% down), inflation is 3%, home price grows at inflation, you are getting a 15% nominal return on your investment in the home, and a 12% real return. For a more realistic estimate, say leverage is 4 to 1 (you've paid off part of the mortgage), inflation at 2% as it has been recently. Still 6% real return. I will grant that the index fund is more liquid, obviously.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  > Just to put numbers to this, if you are levered 5 to 1 (20% down), inflation is 3%, home price grows at inflation, you are getting a 15% nominal return on your investment in the home, and a 12% real return. I'm sorry I didn't follow that calculation perfectly. I (sort of) understand the part where you get a 15% nominal ROI for 20% down. But if you're paying your mortgage every month you're leveraged less and less each successive month right (as you pay off principal and accumulate equity)? Would that change the calculation? Valuation and ROI (beyond simple stuff) is not one of my strengths unfortunately. > Hard to say. Depends on inflation levels. And if inflation is somewhat high (which it hasn't been recently), That's what I was getting at with "on average". Inflation hasn't been high for quite a while. I will grant you that it's not cut-and-dry in favor of index funds under all circumstances.
  - lmm 9y ago
    > if you're paying your mortgage every month you're leveraged less and less each successive month right (as you pay off principal and accumulate equity)? Would that change the calculation? Yes. But you can keep your leverage ratio the same by upsizing every few years and remortgaging when you do. As you get towards retirement you generally delever but that's what you would want to be doing anyway (sacrificing some return for lower risk).