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Aaaaaand it's flagged. No surprises there. I was refreshing every five minutes to see how long it would take. [Edit: Thanks to the mods for taking responsibili

by marvin 9y ago

Aaaaaand it's flagged. No surprises there. I was refreshing every five minutes to see how long it would take. [Edit: Thanks to the mods for taking responsibility for allowing this discussion].

cooper12 9y ago
The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. Any word ending in -ism is like a swear word to them. It's a really big problem that no one wants to acknowledge and if you do bring it up suddenly you're an SJW, combative, political, etc... It speaks numbers that in the link so many people had the same thought as the author, but were afraid to speak out. We've successfully stigmatized calling people out in society because that would be impolite and PC culture. There used to be a phrase "speak truth to power", but it doesn't really work when so many are silenced and ostracized.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Or the flagging is because these issues are trawled over here regularly and never really go anywhere, and people feel there are already better fora to discuss those issues?
  - cooper12 9y ago
    > never really go anywhere Better to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist then. > there are already better fora Such as? This is a tech forum, one of places which currently has a lot of issues with sexism and discrimination. It should be one of the first places addressing it. What's this alternate forum? Somewhere out of sight and out of mind I'm sure. The fact that my comment got flagged is just testament to its veracity.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      This is a tech forum, in part, as you suggest. So surely avoiding issues which are primarily social and don't have a specific bearing on tech is reasonable. The other fora I see as better would be one's concerned with sex discrimination, probably IRL places. If someone posts on HN about a library someone wrote, a hack they did, obscure details of a back-end, a new startup .. the sex of the people involved is very rarely even mentioned. I'd sooner just focus on the reported actions rather than the sex of the people performing those actions. Do you really think HN is going to be a useful forum to advance chances in social policies and/or sexual politics? Perhaps we can flip things and ask you why you consider this to be a good forum for that?
      - cooper12 9y ago
        Just because it's a tech forum, doesn't mean it's immune from social issues. This fetishization of "objectivity" (like there's such a thing) is one of the reasons tech has such a problem with it. I wish we could all be emotionless robots who only process facts and figures, but reality doesn't work that way and we all have our implicit or explicit biases and the world is not a just place. Also by your logic things like Net Neutrality or UBI would have no place on HN since they're related to politics and society, yet here they are. What you really mean is "please don't post things that are inconvenient to me and make me uncomfortable". (you're also being willfully ignorant of the context of this post if you think gender had nothing to do with it) Don't mind me, please do go back to jerking off over the latest Go rewrite or Javascript framework. As for your retort, the best forum to address issues is right where they happen. I notice casual dismissal of sexism being an issue here all the time. Your suggestion is like saying that the black rights movement should have only held speeches at the NAACP instead of coordinating sit-ins and marches. You bring your message to the people who need it, whether they like it or not. Of course they'll try to dismiss it saying they don't like your tone or approach, but that's been a constant tactic used against progress for centuries, nothing new.
        pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        >As for your retort, the best forum to address issues is right where they happen. // I find it more like suggesting all cookery books have a section on the authors opinions of racial segregation. Sure, racism appears in kitchens everywhere, but IMO you don't need to address it in recipe books. Indeed I'd rather recipe books keep to recipes, not because I want to ignore racism but because they're not a useful forum for it. Net neutrality and UBI, the latter probably doesn't belong here but they are both things that hackers are involved in hacking, whilst speculating about whether a particular individual is or isn't acting out of sexism seems very far from the primary aims of this forum. Why not keep this a place where we, of whatever sex or none, can "jerk off to the latest Go rewrite", why do you need to bring sexual politics here? If people are talking about tech, the tech has no sexual connotations, the people are removed by virtue of the forum from their obvious sexual characteristics, ... why not allow a place to be non-sexual, tech (and startup), focused? If the woman who headed the Go rewrite is a bisexual feminist who married her hamster then you can no doubt comment about that on tabloid news fora; why do you have to bring it here too? Presumably - given your vaguely couched suggestions of people exhibiting racism and sexism - unless my cornflake packet talks about these issues you find it to be racist & sexist?
- b6 9y ago
  > The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. People you disagree with are complicated people with complicated views. I don't think it's good to label them, treat them as one group, and characterize their views as just fear. How do you feel if I say "the mere thought that the world pretty much is a meritocracy frightens feminists"? Fair?
  - cooper12 9y ago
    A techbro is actually a specific group. Similar to a fratbro. It was my generalization of the term "brogrammer". And I wouldn't really react to such a statement because firstly it's naive, and second it's based on its own definition of feminism. I'm also quite tired of this "complicated and unique" business. I've been on HN long enough to notice some trends and they all point in one direction. Some people just don't like the mirror turned on them.

by marvin 9y ago

Aaaaaand it's flagged. No surprises there. I was refreshing every five minutes to see how long it would take. [Edit: Thanks to the mods for taking responsibility for allowing this discussion].

cooper12 9y ago

The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. Any word ending in -ism is like a swear word to them. It's a really big problem that no one wants to acknowledge and if you do bring it up suddenly you're an SJW, combative, political, etc... It speaks numbers that in the link so many people had the same thought as the author, but were afraid to speak out. We've successfully stigmatized calling people out in society because that would be impolite and PC culture. There used to be a phrase "speak truth to power", but it doesn't really work when so many are silenced and ostracized.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Or the flagging is because these issues are trawled over here regularly and never really go anywhere, and people feel there are already better fora to discuss those issues?
- cooper12 9y ago
  > never really go anywhere Better to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist then. > there are already better fora Such as? This is a tech forum, one of places which currently has a lot of issues with sexism and discrimination. It should be one of the first places addressing it. What's this alternate forum? Somewhere out of sight and out of mind I'm sure. The fact that my comment got flagged is just testament to its veracity.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    This is a tech forum, in part, as you suggest. So surely avoiding issues which are primarily social and don't have a specific bearing on tech is reasonable. The other fora I see as better would be one's concerned with sex discrimination, probably IRL places. If someone posts on HN about a library someone wrote, a hack they did, obscure details of a back-end, a new startup .. the sex of the people involved is very rarely even mentioned. I'd sooner just focus on the reported actions rather than the sex of the people performing those actions. Do you really think HN is going to be a useful forum to advance chances in social policies and/or sexual politics? Perhaps we can flip things and ask you why you consider this to be a good forum for that?
    - cooper12 9y ago
      Just because it's a tech forum, doesn't mean it's immune from social issues. This fetishization of "objectivity" (like there's such a thing) is one of the reasons tech has such a problem with it. I wish we could all be emotionless robots who only process facts and figures, but reality doesn't work that way and we all have our implicit or explicit biases and the world is not a just place. Also by your logic things like Net Neutrality or UBI would have no place on HN since they're related to politics and society, yet here they are. What you really mean is "please don't post things that are inconvenient to me and make me uncomfortable". (you're also being willfully ignorant of the context of this post if you think gender had nothing to do with it) Don't mind me, please do go back to jerking off over the latest Go rewrite or Javascript framework. As for your retort, the best forum to address issues is right where they happen. I notice casual dismissal of sexism being an issue here all the time. Your suggestion is like saying that the black rights movement should have only held speeches at the NAACP instead of coordinating sit-ins and marches. You bring your message to the people who need it, whether they like it or not. Of course they'll try to dismiss it saying they don't like your tone or approach, but that's been a constant tactic used against progress for centuries, nothing new.
      - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
        >As for your retort, the best forum to address issues is right where they happen. // I find it more like suggesting all cookery books have a section on the authors opinions of racial segregation. Sure, racism appears in kitchens everywhere, but IMO you don't need to address it in recipe books. Indeed I'd rather recipe books keep to recipes, not because I want to ignore racism but because they're not a useful forum for it. Net neutrality and UBI, the latter probably doesn't belong here but they are both things that hackers are involved in hacking, whilst speculating about whether a particular individual is or isn't acting out of sexism seems very far from the primary aims of this forum. Why not keep this a place where we, of whatever sex or none, can "jerk off to the latest Go rewrite", why do you need to bring sexual politics here? If people are talking about tech, the tech has no sexual connotations, the people are removed by virtue of the forum from their obvious sexual characteristics, ... why not allow a place to be non-sexual, tech (and startup), focused? If the woman who headed the Go rewrite is a bisexual feminist who married her hamster then you can no doubt comment about that on tabloid news fora; why do you have to bring it here too? Presumably - given your vaguely couched suggestions of people exhibiting racism and sexism - unless my cornflake packet talks about these issues you find it to be racist & sexist?
b6 9y ago
> The mere thought that the world isn't a meritocracy frightens techbros. People you disagree with are complicated people with complicated views. I don't think it's good to label them, treat them as one group, and characterize their views as just fear. How do you feel if I say "the mere thought that the world pretty much is a meritocracy frightens feminists"? Fair?
- cooper12 9y ago
  A techbro is actually a specific group. Similar to a fratbro. It was my generalization of the term "brogrammer". And I wouldn't really react to such a statement because firstly it's naive, and second it's based on its own definition of feminism. I'm also quite tired of this "complicated and unique" business. I've been on HN long enough to notice some trends and they all point in one direction. Some people just don't like the mirror turned on them.