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I recently finished reading Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner, a history of the CIA. He basically argues that the entire organization has been marked by incompetenc

by Naga 9y ago

I recently finished reading Legacy of Ashes by Tim Weiner, a history of the CIA. He basically argues that the entire organization has been marked by incompetence and politics throughout history. It was really eye-opening to me to hear that the mysterious organization behind all conspiracy theories is mostly smoke and mirrors. Cue the old adage regarding malice and stupidity.

abnry 9y ago
He makes a case but two things: (1) Weiner obviously has an axe to grind in his polemic, and (2) we hear much more about the CIA's failures than its successes. But definitely during the cold war the russians smoked us in espionage.
- harry8 9y ago
  Pick the team that finishes last in any sporting tournament and you hear more about their failures than their successes. The usual response is "Well what successes?" So it would seem to be with the CIA. The USA is hugely and massively successful and the CIA hides its disaster laden, failure after failure after horrendous outcome in secrecy. What success did the CIA have, ever? List their failures is so easy, I'll start with the ajax revolution and Pinochet, both occasions where if the CIA had done nothing the world would be better and the USA stronger.
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    > What success did the CIA have, ever? * Operation Ivy Bells (joint with USN and NSA, according to Wikipedia) * Stuxnet, possibly (unclear who was responsible for it, although it's generally thought to be joint US-Israeli effort)
    - mistermann 9y ago
      The ones we've never heard about, which would be the highest form of success?
      - appleflaxen 9y ago
        that's certainly what they'd have you believe.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        mistermann 9y ago
        Perhaps, do you have certainty that that isn't the case though? You seem to, but based on what?
        marcus_holmes 9y ago
        Based on the utter certainty that if an American succeeds at anything, they will broadcast it loudly and repeatedly. *yes, I'm making a joke. Mostly.
      - funnyfacts365 9y ago
        Perhaps, do you have certainty that that is the case though? You seem to, but based on what?
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    The story of the CIA's ongoing attempts to assassinate Castro reads like a slapstick comedy. Exploding cigars weren't even the silliest.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - pizza 9y ago
      Hard to believe we were so close to nuclear armageddon bc of US's incompetence in Cuba in the 60s.
Top19 9y ago
I read Tim Weiner's book 10 years ago...it was great. Am currently reading his book on the FBI. To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. At the time I was pretty shocked how bad it was at the COA, but then I realized...the CIA is really just a metaphor for how large organizations everywhere run. A good example is how assignments are given out in the CIA. Your career progression very much depends on which region you get assigned to, or which embassy you get official cover wth. Very similar to say how sales territories are handed out and fought over at regular corporations. Having just left a 100k+ person company, I can tell you it's a miracle of organization that a company that big can function. It's kind of like seeing a person weighing 1000 pounds trying to walk, or a 125 yr old man try to cross the street. The fact that they can exist / operate is awe-inspiring, expecting them to do anywhere near a good job seems to be out of the question. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and I hope more of them appear later on. If you work at a big company though please don't be discouraged. It's almost impossible to have good processes for a company that big as mentioned above, so things are, ironically, even more dependent on people's actions and personal leadership.
- bhalperin 9y ago
  > To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. Stefan Rudnicki (the narrator) is an absurdly good narrator. He regularly narrates the Lightspeed Magazine podcast, a sci-fi short story podcast, if that perchance interests you.
  - scandox 9y ago
    Sometimes he and Wayne June just go too deep though. All you can hear on certain words is a bass rumble...
- acqq 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle Laurence J. Peter: "In time, every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent to carry out its duties" [the corollary:] "work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence."

by Naga 9y ago

abnry 9y ago

He makes a case but two things: (1) Weiner obviously has an axe to grind in his polemic, and (2) we hear much more about the CIA's failures than its successes. But definitely during the cold war the russians smoked us in espionage.

harry8 9y ago
Pick the team that finishes last in any sporting tournament and you hear more about their failures than their successes. The usual response is "Well what successes?" So it would seem to be with the CIA. The USA is hugely and massively successful and the CIA hides its disaster laden, failure after failure after horrendous outcome in secrecy. What success did the CIA have, ever? List their failures is so easy, I'll start with the ajax revolution and Pinochet, both occasions where if the CIA had done nothing the world would be better and the USA stronger.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  > What success did the CIA have, ever? * Operation Ivy Bells (joint with USN and NSA, according to Wikipedia) * Stuxnet, possibly (unclear who was responsible for it, although it's generally thought to be joint US-Israeli effort)
  - mistermann 9y ago
    The ones we've never heard about, which would be the highest form of success?
    - appleflaxen 9y ago
      that's certainly what they'd have you believe.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - mistermann 9y ago
        Perhaps, do you have certainty that that isn't the case though? You seem to, but based on what?
        marcus_holmes 9y ago
        Based on the utter certainty that if an American succeeds at anything, they will broadcast it loudly and repeatedly. *yes, I'm making a joke. Mostly.
    - funnyfacts365 9y ago
      Perhaps, do you have certainty that that is the case though? You seem to, but based on what?
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  The story of the CIA's ongoing attempts to assassinate Castro reads like a slapstick comedy. Exploding cigars weren't even the silliest.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pizza 9y ago
    Hard to believe we were so close to nuclear armageddon bc of US's incompetence in Cuba in the 60s.

Top19 9y ago

I read Tim Weiner's book 10 years ago...it was great. Am currently reading his book on the FBI. To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. At the time I was pretty shocked how bad it was at the COA, but then I realized...the CIA is really just a metaphor for how large organizations everywhere run. A good example is how assignments are given out in the CIA. Your career progression very much depends on which region you get assigned to, or which embassy you get official cover wth. Very similar to say how sales territories are handed out and fought over at regular corporations. Having just left a 100k+ person company, I can tell you it's a miracle of organization that a company that big can function. It's kind of like seeing a person weighing 1000 pounds trying to walk, or a 125 yr old man try to cross the street. The fact that they can exist / operate is awe-inspiring, expecting them to do anywhere near a good job seems to be out of the question. Obviously there are exceptions to this, and I hope more of them appear later on. If you work at a big company though please don't be discouraged. It's almost impossible to have good processes for a company that big as mentioned above, so things are, ironically, even more dependent on people's actions and personal leadership.

bhalperin 9y ago
> To my delight Audible managed to get the same narrator. Stefan Rudnicki (the narrator) is an absurdly good narrator. He regularly narrates the Lightspeed Magazine podcast, a sci-fi short story podcast, if that perchance interests you.
- scandox 9y ago
  Sometimes he and Wayne June just go too deep though. All you can hear on certain words is a bass rumble...
acqq 9y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle Laurence J. Peter: "In time, every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent to carry out its duties" [the corollary:] "work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence."