6 ms·

Britain “haemorrhaging” manufacturing jobs

36 points by endswapper 9y ago

jimnotgym 9y ago
Isn't the world "haemorrhaging" manufacturing jobs? Isn't this just mechanization?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hardlianotion 9y ago
  That is highly likely. But this article looks more like a tone piece in support of the current iteration of the Labour Party, written with an election in mind, not a serious piece of analysis. The surrounding articles put this impression in my mind.
- wmil 9y ago
  Not really. This is actually a side effect of GHG policies. Traditional British industries like steel production can't possibly compete with China when they have to pay carbon offsets and their competitors don't. So British factories are being shut down, even if they are more carbon efficient.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    That's... a vast (and very inaccurate) over-simplification.
microcolonel 9y ago
First they say that it's been happening for over a decade, but then they blame Brexit at the end, this makes no sense.
- fullshark 9y ago
  They might have their cause and effect backwards there.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  I can only read, not listen to this, but they aren't blaming Brexit, they just say that post-Brexit Britain will pay the price if they can't figure out a solution, which seems fair. Of course, post-Remain Britain would be in exactly the same circumstance considering the jobs have been going for 10+ years.
- 24837 9y ago
  Could you point me towards that bit where they blame Brexit? I can only find the part where it says > “If this sad decline is not addressed then post-Brexit Britain and the next generation will surely pay the price.” ...which is a fair statement, I'd say.
- endswapper 9y ago
  The quote doesn't blame Brexit. It's expressing the urgency of the issue and only referencing "post-Brexit Britain," as where Britain stands today. I believe you are referring to this: “If this sad decline is not addressed then post-Brexit Britain and the next generation will surely pay the price.” Or, if the issue isn't addressed, from here on out it will be to our detriment.
- lispm 9y ago
  That something happens over a long time does not mean that it does not have several causes. I can remember well how the UK promoted the 'service' and 'finance' industry in the past decades. Manufacturing was seen as obsolete. Especially when North Sea oil brought wealth to to Britain for some time, they were mostly busy managing and consuming this wealth - currently oil is cheaper and North Sea oil is less competitive.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Employment in manufacturing has been falling since the sixties, this isn't a recent occurrence.
keithpeter 9y ago
Anecdotal: I walk into the centre of Birmingham through Digbeth across the river Rea in its little culvert most days and have done since around the late 80s. Used to go past small metal bashers and 'repetition' companies with doors open for ventilation. Metal baskets full of washers, and a galvanising company with a huge Victorian shed dipping parts into vats. Now, mostly garages, car scrap and rebuilding. A few hipster galleries and coffee bars. Historical Note: Thatcher's administrations moved the UK economy from manufacturing to service industries. This has always worried me through the volatility of the service sector. Germany (then West Germany) went down a different path. Numerical sideline: West Midlands (mentioned in OA) has a population of 5 million. Breaking News: Jeremy Corbin is addressing a rally down the hill. Big turnout. Background: GMB is a TUC affiliated trade union https://www.gmb.org.uk/ https://www.gmb.org.uk/ https://www.tuc.org.uk/britains-unions https://www.tuc.org.uk/britains-unions
- thinkingemote 9y ago
  Thanks for the ancedote. As a fellow brit I'm not sure what kind of universal truth or meaning this conjunction of ideas means but it's certainly characteristic of the liberal and flexible nature of British society at least.
  - keithpeter 9y ago
    No universal anything and no claim to truth. Just trying to convey the various influences in the moment.
- youngtaff 9y ago
  I understand the sentiment but it's a little harsh to say Thatcher moved the UK economy from manufacturing to service industries (although that seemed her intent). From 1970 - 1980 the percentage of GDP from manufacturing fell by 5%, from 1980 - 1995 it then fell by another 5% https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/ https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturi...
  - keithpeter 9y ago
turbinerneiter 9y ago
I have two very raw ideas about this slowly taking form in my brain. 1. Factories produce wealth. If you look at the nations doing good and the nations doing bad[1], factories, I think, make a difference. USA completely moved their means of production to Asia, thinking they could produce cheap and make huge profits. Works for Apple. Doesn't work for the consumer. These jobs are just missing. Nobody can buy. So people borrow. Until the lenders crash, because they can't pay back. But the banks have to lend, that's their business! And when companies don't borrow because they don't build factories, then the consumer has to borrow. Needs to, because he doesn't get payed well. 2. With factories gone, our system doesn't work anymore. Forget Asia. Robots. And someday not even big robots in factories, but a desktop replicator. There is so many jobs that will just cease to exist. Sure, there will be new ones, but some researches claim that already today robots take more jobs than create. Especially combined with the low investments. Corporate profits are at an all time high, savings are at an all time high, money is cheap (negative interest rate!) but still investments are low. Companies aren't borrowing. Nations are still playing the ordo-liberal game and cut spending. Consumers are the only ones borrowing. It's insane. It's like capitalism forgot how capitalism work. Companies should borrow, invest, earn, pay their workers, and the workers consume. Now companies save, pull profits, cut wages and replace workers by cheaper means of production and the jobless borrow to consume. Every couple of years this crashes because people can't pay their loans. Government takes over the debt to reset the cycle, but because their increased debt they have to cut their spending. [1] I audaciously define good/bad in way that it serves my argument.
- idiotdummy 9y ago
  >It's like capitalism forgot how capitalism work. Capitalism is fine, and America (and the entire global population) is wealthier than it ever has been. >Companies should borrow, invest, earn, pay their workers, and the workers consume. Now companies save, pull profits, cut wages and replace workers by cheaper means of production and the jobless borrow to consume None of this makes sense in the context of a closed ecosystem. Saving money doesn't remove it from the economy.
- pavlov 9y ago
  If you look at the nations doing good and the nations doing bad[1], factories, I think, make a difference. I'd like to know what your definition actually is because there seems to be very little connection. Some examples: Italy and Japan are first-world nations with lots of factories but middling growth. Bangladesh is a poor nation with lots of factories but weak prospects. [Edit -- in my original post I referred to Switzerland because I misremembered the stats. It does have a smaller share of labor force in industry than neighboring Germany or Italy, but Swiss manufacturing is still very significant. Thanks to the posters who corrected my mistake.]
matthewcford 9y ago
Post-Brexit this will be... Britain “haemorrhaging” jobs
jdietrich 9y ago
British manufacturing output has grown significantly over the last 40 years, despite a 60% reduction in manufacturing employment over the same period. We're making more and better stuff with far fewer people. The union narrative of manufacturing having been "run into the ground" by neglectful governments is clearly bogus, as is the nationalist narrative that manufacturing jobs have been exported abroad. This is about automation and mechanisation. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2803400/UK-manufacturing-output-increased-1978-ONS-figures-show.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2803400/UK-m...
- rrggrr 9y ago
  Except OPs article laments the loss of jobs, not output. And, its not clear from your reference if the increase in output should be attributed to larger dollar goods (eg. Rolls Royce engines), or more smaller dollar goods. Likely the former I would think.
rrggrr 9y ago
The concern for Britain and other countries ought to be the loss of sovereignty that accompanies a decline in manufacturing of the magnitude the article describes. When a country's infrastructure and supply chain is dominated by imported goods a country's ability to make decisions in its citizens best interests declines. Its ability to make fair trade deals declines. Its national security declines.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  Nothing in the article suggests there has been a decline in manufacturing output in Britain but a decline in jobs. I don't know the situation there enough to know what is happening, but in the USA for instance the decline of jobs in manufacturing wasn't accompanied with a decline in output, quite the opposite.
  - _delirium 9y ago
    Depends heavily on how you measure. U.S. manufacturing looks good by value of the manufactured products, because it remains strong in a handful of high-value manufacturing segments. That's an important measure, but may or may not capture what everyone is interested in. Besides employment, other measures may include, for example, how dependent is the country on imports for items vital to national security? An exclusive dependence on imported steel can have downsides even though steel is now a low-value commodity. Another measure is the diversity of the overall manufacturing industry. Does a country manufacture a whole range of products, or is it highly specialized in a few segments? The latter can still be good by value, but may be more brittle, and make it harder to start new companies in certain fields due to a lack of a local ecosystem (the U.S. has nothing like the Shenzhen ecosystem in electronics, for example).
  - rrggrr 9y ago
    Yes, the very same point I raise in another comment on this thread. And the difference is this: Manufacturing output is an almost meaningless metric unless its tied to jobs, balance of trade or some other "facts on the ground" statistic. For example, the loss of British manufacturing jobs is strongly correlated to a growing British trade deficit, an enlarged British welfare system, and a concerning British debt-to-gdp ratio. It doesn't matter how many Trent jet engines Rolls Royce exports if the bulk of inputs are imported and there is little impact on jobs. But, because of the high price, those engine can have quite an impact on reported manufacturing output.
droithomme 9y ago
I buy RaspberryPi stuff and cheeses that are made in Britain. I also have a nice vintage Burberry trench coat that I treasure. I'm not sure what all they make there. The article talks about "manufacturing jobs" without any examples. Examples for such an article, especially including changes that exemplify the claims of the article that manufacturing is down, would be really nice.
Animats 9y ago
The West Midlands has lost almost 100,000 manufacturing jobs. The coal pits of the Midlands are no more. The last deep coal mine in the UK closed on 18 December 2015. Many heavy manufacturing jobs went down with them.

36 points by endswapper 9y ago

jimnotgym 9y ago

Isn't the world "haemorrhaging" manufacturing jobs? Isn't this just mechanization?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hardlianotion 9y ago
That is highly likely. But this article looks more like a tone piece in support of the current iteration of the Labour Party, written with an election in mind, not a serious piece of analysis. The surrounding articles put this impression in my mind.
wmil 9y ago
Not really. This is actually a side effect of GHG policies. Traditional British industries like steel production can't possibly compete with China when they have to pay carbon offsets and their competitors don't. So British factories are being shut down, even if they are more carbon efficient.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  That's... a vast (and very inaccurate) over-simplification.

microcolonel 9y ago

First they say that it's been happening for over a decade, but then they blame Brexit at the end, this makes no sense.

fullshark 9y ago
They might have their cause and effect backwards there.
oh_sigh 9y ago
I can only read, not listen to this, but they aren't blaming Brexit, they just say that post-Brexit Britain will pay the price if they can't figure out a solution, which seems fair. Of course, post-Remain Britain would be in exactly the same circumstance considering the jobs have been going for 10+ years.
24837 9y ago
Could you point me towards that bit where they blame Brexit? I can only find the part where it says > “If this sad decline is not addressed then post-Brexit Britain and the next generation will surely pay the price.” ...which is a fair statement, I'd say.
endswapper 9y ago
The quote doesn't blame Brexit. It's expressing the urgency of the issue and only referencing "post-Brexit Britain," as where Britain stands today. I believe you are referring to this: “If this sad decline is not addressed then post-Brexit Britain and the next generation will surely pay the price.” Or, if the issue isn't addressed, from here on out it will be to our detriment.
lispm 9y ago
That something happens over a long time does not mean that it does not have several causes. I can remember well how the UK promoted the 'service' and 'finance' industry in the past decades. Manufacturing was seen as obsolete. Especially when North Sea oil brought wealth to to Britain for some time, they were mostly busy managing and consuming this wealth - currently oil is cheaper and North Sea oil is less competitive.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

Employment in manufacturing has been falling since the sixties, this isn't a recent occurrence.

keithpeter 9y ago

Anecdotal: I walk into the centre of Birmingham through Digbeth across the river Rea in its little culvert most days and have done since around the late 80s. Used to go past small metal bashers and 'repetition' companies with doors open for ventilation. Metal baskets full of washers, and a galvanising company with a huge Victorian shed dipping parts into vats. Now, mostly garages, car scrap and rebuilding. A few hipster galleries and coffee bars. Historical Note: Thatcher's administrations moved the UK economy from manufacturing to service industries. This has always worried me through the volatility of the service sector. Germany (then West Germany) went down a different path. Numerical sideline: West Midlands (mentioned in OA) has a population of 5 million. Breaking News: Jeremy Corbin is addressing a rally down the hill. Big turnout. Background: GMB is a TUC affiliated trade union https://www.gmb.org.uk/ https://www.gmb.org.uk/ https://www.tuc.org.uk/britains-unions https://www.tuc.org.uk/britains-unions

thinkingemote 9y ago
Thanks for the ancedote. As a fellow brit I'm not sure what kind of universal truth or meaning this conjunction of ideas means but it's certainly characteristic of the liberal and flexible nature of British society at least.
- keithpeter 9y ago
  No universal anything and no claim to truth. Just trying to convey the various influences in the moment.
youngtaff 9y ago
I understand the sentiment but it's a little harsh to say Thatcher moved the UK economy from manufacturing to service industries (although that seemed her intent). From 1970 - 1980 the percentage of GDP from manufacturing fell by 5%, from 1980 - 1995 it then fell by another 5% https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturing/ https://fullfact.org/economy/did-labour-decimate-manufacturi...
- keithpeter 9y ago

turbinerneiter 9y ago

I have two very raw ideas about this slowly taking form in my brain. 1. Factories produce wealth. If you look at the nations doing good and the nations doing bad[1], factories, I think, make a difference. USA completely moved their means of production to Asia, thinking they could produce cheap and make huge profits. Works for Apple. Doesn't work for the consumer. These jobs are just missing. Nobody can buy. So people borrow. Until the lenders crash, because they can't pay back. But the banks have to lend, that's their business! And when companies don't borrow because they don't build factories, then the consumer has to borrow. Needs to, because he doesn't get payed well. 2. With factories gone, our system doesn't work anymore. Forget Asia. Robots. And someday not even big robots in factories, but a desktop replicator. There is so many jobs that will just cease to exist. Sure, there will be new ones, but some researches claim that already today robots take more jobs than create. Especially combined with the low investments. Corporate profits are at an all time high, savings are at an all time high, money is cheap (negative interest rate!) but still investments are low. Companies aren't borrowing. Nations are still playing the ordo-liberal game and cut spending. Consumers are the only ones borrowing. It's insane. It's like capitalism forgot how capitalism work. Companies should borrow, invest, earn, pay their workers, and the workers consume. Now companies save, pull profits, cut wages and replace workers by cheaper means of production and the jobless borrow to consume. Every couple of years this crashes because people can't pay their loans. Government takes over the debt to reset the cycle, but because their increased debt they have to cut their spending. [1] I audaciously define good/bad in way that it serves my argument.

idiotdummy 9y ago
>It's like capitalism forgot how capitalism work. Capitalism is fine, and America (and the entire global population) is wealthier than it ever has been. >Companies should borrow, invest, earn, pay their workers, and the workers consume. Now companies save, pull profits, cut wages and replace workers by cheaper means of production and the jobless borrow to consume None of this makes sense in the context of a closed ecosystem. Saving money doesn't remove it from the economy.
pavlov 9y ago
If you look at the nations doing good and the nations doing bad[1], factories, I think, make a difference. I'd like to know what your definition actually is because there seems to be very little connection. Some examples: Italy and Japan are first-world nations with lots of factories but middling growth. Bangladesh is a poor nation with lots of factories but weak prospects. [Edit -- in my original post I referred to Switzerland because I misremembered the stats. It does have a smaller share of labor force in industry than neighboring Germany or Italy, but Swiss manufacturing is still very significant. Thanks to the posters who corrected my mistake.]

matthewcford 9y ago

Post-Brexit this will be... Britain “haemorrhaging” jobs

jdietrich 9y ago

British manufacturing output has grown significantly over the last 40 years, despite a 60% reduction in manufacturing employment over the same period. We're making more and better stuff with far fewer people. The union narrative of manufacturing having been "run into the ground" by neglectful governments is clearly bogus, as is the nationalist narrative that manufacturing jobs have been exported abroad. This is about automation and mechanisation. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2803400/UK-manufacturing-output-increased-1978-ONS-figures-show.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2803400/UK-m...

rrggrr 9y ago
Except OPs article laments the loss of jobs, not output. And, its not clear from your reference if the increase in output should be attributed to larger dollar goods (eg. Rolls Royce engines), or more smaller dollar goods. Likely the former I would think.

rrggrr 9y ago

The concern for Britain and other countries ought to be the loss of sovereignty that accompanies a decline in manufacturing of the magnitude the article describes. When a country's infrastructure and supply chain is dominated by imported goods a country's ability to make decisions in its citizens best interests declines. Its ability to make fair trade deals declines. Its national security declines.

kasey_junk 9y ago
Nothing in the article suggests there has been a decline in manufacturing output in Britain but a decline in jobs. I don't know the situation there enough to know what is happening, but in the USA for instance the decline of jobs in manufacturing wasn't accompanied with a decline in output, quite the opposite.
- _delirium 9y ago
  Depends heavily on how you measure. U.S. manufacturing looks good by value of the manufactured products, because it remains strong in a handful of high-value manufacturing segments. That's an important measure, but may or may not capture what everyone is interested in. Besides employment, other measures may include, for example, how dependent is the country on imports for items vital to national security? An exclusive dependence on imported steel can have downsides even though steel is now a low-value commodity. Another measure is the diversity of the overall manufacturing industry. Does a country manufacture a whole range of products, or is it highly specialized in a few segments? The latter can still be good by value, but may be more brittle, and make it harder to start new companies in certain fields due to a lack of a local ecosystem (the U.S. has nothing like the Shenzhen ecosystem in electronics, for example).
- rrggrr 9y ago
  Yes, the very same point I raise in another comment on this thread. And the difference is this: Manufacturing output is an almost meaningless metric unless its tied to jobs, balance of trade or some other "facts on the ground" statistic. For example, the loss of British manufacturing jobs is strongly correlated to a growing British trade deficit, an enlarged British welfare system, and a concerning British debt-to-gdp ratio. It doesn't matter how many Trent jet engines Rolls Royce exports if the bulk of inputs are imported and there is little impact on jobs. But, because of the high price, those engine can have quite an impact on reported manufacturing output.

droithomme 9y ago

I buy RaspberryPi stuff and cheeses that are made in Britain. I also have a nice vintage Burberry trench coat that I treasure. I'm not sure what all they make there. The article talks about "manufacturing jobs" without any examples. Examples for such an article, especially including changes that exemplify the claims of the article that manufacturing is down, would be really nice.

Animats 9y ago

The West Midlands has lost almost 100,000 manufacturing jobs. The coal pits of the Midlands are no more. The last deep coal mine in the UK closed on 18 December 2015. Many heavy manufacturing jobs went down with them.