6 ms·

Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.

by kapauldo 9y ago

wavefunction 9y ago
Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.
- aswanson 9y ago
  Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
  - mcherm 9y ago
    > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      Yes, that's what the poster above you said.
- gnode 9y ago
  It essentially is, by exception. The text of the Thriteenth Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
conanbatt 9y ago
Being convicted to slavery is justice now?
- crusso 9y ago
  I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.
  - lovich 9y ago
    So other than the progeny part, how is prison labor not exactly what you said? People are literally captured, and based on overturned convictions at least some percentage are innocent. These people are then forced to work and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system. Based on the California example the system even tries to keep people working when given a court order to release people. The only thing preventing the in perpetuity part is basically the good graces of the bureacracy. I do agree about the overuse of the term in other situations however
    - mcherm 9y ago
      > and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system That part, at least, is not technically correct.
    - danielam 9y ago
      You're confusing things. There is a difference between forced hard labor as just (and thus commensurate) punishment for a crime and actual, particular abuses committed by the justice system. There is nothing wrong with forced hard labor as a punishment for a crime to the degree required by justice (and frankly, many crimes deserve far worse). There IS something wrong with inflicting pain on someone who is innocent, esp. when those inflicting the pain do so without authority, without sufficient justification or in excess.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says: > "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor. § 46.2-113: > [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18.2-11. Ran a red light? Not a criminal. DUI? Criminal.
  - tbyehl 9y ago
    Traffic tickets are crimes in some places. OCGA 40-6-1(a): > unless otherwise declared in this chapter with respect to particular offenses, it is a misdemeanor for any person to do any act forbidden or fail to perform any act required in this chapter. Upside, we're entitled to real jury trials.
chadgeidel 9y ago
How many laws on the books does the average citizen break every day? Are all crimes equal? If they are not equal, does every lawbreaker deserve to be painted with the same brush? I would suggest this line of reasoning - "they are all criminals" - is not productive. We all are criminals. Should we all be treated as such?
jaggi1 9y ago
Check the list of people pardoned by George W Bush. Most of them should not have been in jail in first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_W._Bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Geo...

Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.

wavefunction 9y ago

Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.

aswanson 9y ago
Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
- mcherm 9y ago
  > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Yes, that's what the poster above you said.
gnode 9y ago
It essentially is, by exception. The text of the Thriteenth Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

conanbatt 9y ago

Being convicted to slavery is justice now?

crusso 9y ago
I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.
- lovich 9y ago
  So other than the progeny part, how is prison labor not exactly what you said? People are literally captured, and based on overturned convictions at least some percentage are innocent. These people are then forced to work and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system. Based on the California example the system even tries to keep people working when given a court order to release people. The only thing preventing the in perpetuity part is basically the good graces of the bureacracy. I do agree about the overuse of the term in other situations however
  - mcherm 9y ago
    > and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system That part, at least, is not technically correct.
  - danielam 9y ago
    You're confusing things. There is a difference between forced hard labor as just (and thus commensurate) punishment for a crime and actual, particular abuses committed by the justice system. There is nothing wrong with forced hard labor as a punishment for a crime to the degree required by justice (and frankly, many crimes deserve far worse). There IS something wrong with inflicting pain on someone who is innocent, esp. when those inflicting the pain do so without authority, without sufficient justification or in excess.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.

jcranmer 9y ago
Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says: > "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor. § 46.2-113: > [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18.2-11. Ran a red light? Not a criminal. DUI? Criminal.
- tbyehl 9y ago
  Traffic tickets are crimes in some places. OCGA 40-6-1(a): > unless otherwise declared in this chapter with respect to particular offenses, it is a misdemeanor for any person to do any act forbidden or fail to perform any act required in this chapter. Upside, we're entitled to real jury trials.

chadgeidel 9y ago

How many laws on the books does the average citizen break every day? Are all crimes equal? If they are not equal, does every lawbreaker deserve to be painted with the same brush? I would suggest this line of reasoning - "they are all criminals" - is not productive. We all are criminals. Should we all be treated as such?

jaggi1 9y ago

Check the list of people pardoned by George W Bush. Most of them should not have been in jail in first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_W._Bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Geo...