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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have." For all the talk of "negative exte

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have." For all the talk of "negative externalities" I see on HN and the valley in general, I never see people discussing the rampant "negative externalities" of the laws and regulations we pass. It's unfortunate there's so little introspection going on, and so much reliance on the monopoly of the Government to further what Group A or Group B wants. (But it's OK, because I agree with Group A!)

dragonwriter 9y ago
> "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have." A cute saying, but misleading. A government big enough to impose even a modest constraint on violent crime is also more than big enough to take away everything you have; anything weak enough to avoid that threat is not the government and will be replaced in that role but something else that is. So, mitigating that threat necessarily is about managing aspects of government other than its size.
Daishiman 9y ago
Corporations big enough can have a humongous power to take away everything from you.
- utternerd 9y ago
  I can easily opt out of a voluntary transaction -- the corporation has no way to compel me, but the Government absolutely can, and does in fact on a daily basis.
  - adrr 9y ago
    So when corporation lobbies the government to eminent domain your property, how does one opt out of that transaction? Ultimate power is money as it buys anything.
    - djrogers 9y ago
      But at that point you've brought the government back in to it and we're right back where we started. If the government didn't have the ability to create monopolies for the sake of their donors, it wouldn't be a problem.
      - Daishiman 9y ago
        Monopolies are natural; they are the end state of most markets in most market economies. Capital distribution follows a power law, and that implies that a few big players always end up controlling the majority of a market unless you explicitly break them up. This is really basic.
        logicchains 9y ago
        >Monopolies are natural; they are the end state of most markets in most market economies. Capital distribution follows a power law, and that implies that a few big players always end up controlling the majority of a market unless you explicitly break them up. The latter does not imply the former. A monopoly is defined as _a single big player_. That's what the mono means, one! Like in monorail or monotone. If there are "a few big players", that is by definition an oligopoly, not a monopoly. This is _really_ basic English.
        azylman 9y ago
        > This is _really_ basic English That's both incredibly condescending and wrong. "One mega company owning every industry in the world" is not the only way to have a monopoly. You can have monopolies on specific industries or in specific regions (e.g. AT&T and Comcast split up towns in a state and each one is the only provider in that town).
        logicchains 9y ago
        >That's both incredibly condescending and wrong. So was the parent's statement of "This is really basic" when they hadn't provided any evidence or even a clear claim (did they mean a few big players controlling each market, as in the fuel market, apple market, etc., or a few big players controlling a market as in the American market, European market etc).
  - gech 9y ago
    If your choices for the food you eat and housing near work, work itself are all determined/influenced by corporations, then "opting out" is not possible
  - slurry 9y ago
    >the corporation has no way to compel me What? A big corp can't hire a couple of goons?
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars The mining companies, however, refused to meet the demands of the workers and instead hired Baldwin-Felts Agents, equipped with high-powered rifles, to guard the mines, but more important to be strikebreakers.[2][1] After the Agents arrived, the miners either moved out or were evicted from the houses they had been renting from the coal companies, moving into coal camps that were being supported by the Union.[1] Approximately 35,000 people lived in these coal camps.[1] It wasn't until a month after the strike began that it became hostile with the arrival of the Baldwin-Felts Agents who provoked the miners.[1]
  - Daishiman 9y ago
    Because corporations have never ever colluded together to repel interests from outside their industries, or participate in asymmetric exchanges, or have more knowledge about you than you do them. Or because you seem to believe you can opt out of anything. Try lasting too long in many industries without a cell phone number. Oops, it's a natural monopoly. Try opting out of buying a car when you don't agree with the policies of any auto manufacturer. Can you even understand a product's supply chain to see if there aren't companies there that you vehemently disagree with? What about your peers? If you work in most industries there's always a push towards standardized solutions. Try forcing a company to use all open source software and see how far that gets you. We haven't even gotten to the point where a large corporation has enough power to break or make small towns due to the capital they bring in. They have them by the balls. No, your statement has no factual basis whatsoever.
  - rebuilder 9y ago
    The corporations are limited in their power to compel you by the government. Remove the government, and they will compel you to do whatever they feel is in their best interest. Look up "truck system", for example.
aninhumer 9y ago
Any government powerful enough to enforce property rights is by definition powerful enough to take away everything you own.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have." A cute saying, but misleading. A government big enough to impose even a modest constraint on violent crime is also more than big enough to take away everything you have; anything weak enough to avoid that threat is not the government and will be replaced in that role but something else that is. So, mitigating that threat necessarily is about managing aspects of government other than its size.

Daishiman 9y ago

Corporations big enough can have a humongous power to take away everything from you.

utternerd 9y ago
I can easily opt out of a voluntary transaction -- the corporation has no way to compel me, but the Government absolutely can, and does in fact on a daily basis.
- adrr 9y ago
  So when corporation lobbies the government to eminent domain your property, how does one opt out of that transaction? Ultimate power is money as it buys anything.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    But at that point you've brought the government back in to it and we're right back where we started. If the government didn't have the ability to create monopolies for the sake of their donors, it wouldn't be a problem.
    - Daishiman 9y ago
      Monopolies are natural; they are the end state of most markets in most market economies. Capital distribution follows a power law, and that implies that a few big players always end up controlling the majority of a market unless you explicitly break them up. This is really basic.
      - logicchains 9y ago
        >Monopolies are natural; they are the end state of most markets in most market economies. Capital distribution follows a power law, and that implies that a few big players always end up controlling the majority of a market unless you explicitly break them up. The latter does not imply the former. A monopoly is defined as _a single big player_. That's what the mono means, one! Like in monorail or monotone. If there are "a few big players", that is by definition an oligopoly, not a monopoly. This is _really_ basic English.
        azylman 9y ago
        > This is _really_ basic English That's both incredibly condescending and wrong. "One mega company owning every industry in the world" is not the only way to have a monopoly. You can have monopolies on specific industries or in specific regions (e.g. AT&T and Comcast split up towns in a state and each one is the only provider in that town).
        logicchains 9y ago
        >That's both incredibly condescending and wrong. So was the parent's statement of "This is really basic" when they hadn't provided any evidence or even a clear claim (did they mean a few big players controlling each market, as in the fuel market, apple market, etc., or a few big players controlling a market as in the American market, European market etc).
- gech 9y ago
  If your choices for the food you eat and housing near work, work itself are all determined/influenced by corporations, then "opting out" is not possible
- slurry 9y ago
  >the corporation has no way to compel me What? A big corp can't hire a couple of goons?
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars The mining companies, however, refused to meet the demands of the workers and instead hired Baldwin-Felts Agents, equipped with high-powered rifles, to guard the mines, but more important to be strikebreakers.[2][1] After the Agents arrived, the miners either moved out or were evicted from the houses they had been renting from the coal companies, moving into coal camps that were being supported by the Union.[1] Approximately 35,000 people lived in these coal camps.[1] It wasn't until a month after the strike began that it became hostile with the arrival of the Baldwin-Felts Agents who provoked the miners.[1]
- Daishiman 9y ago
  Because corporations have never ever colluded together to repel interests from outside their industries, or participate in asymmetric exchanges, or have more knowledge about you than you do them. Or because you seem to believe you can opt out of anything. Try lasting too long in many industries without a cell phone number. Oops, it's a natural monopoly. Try opting out of buying a car when you don't agree with the policies of any auto manufacturer. Can you even understand a product's supply chain to see if there aren't companies there that you vehemently disagree with? What about your peers? If you work in most industries there's always a push towards standardized solutions. Try forcing a company to use all open source software and see how far that gets you. We haven't even gotten to the point where a large corporation has enough power to break or make small towns due to the capital they bring in. They have them by the balls. No, your statement has no factual basis whatsoever.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  The corporations are limited in their power to compel you by the government. Remove the government, and they will compel you to do whatever they feel is in their best interest. Look up "truck system", for example.

aninhumer 9y ago

Any government powerful enough to enforce property rights is by definition powerful enough to take away everything you own.