8 ms·

I stopped caring about this type of ambition porn in my late twenties, and I'm a lot happier for it. I'm a lazy, average guy who will probably have a pretty ave

by nether 9y ago

I stopped caring about this type of ambition porn in my late twenties, and I'm a lot happier for it. I'm a lazy, average guy who will probably have a pretty average life. When I stopped being so "hungry," it opened up a world of tranquility and joy that had always been there.

Retra 9y ago
I mean, if you were trying to be ambitious only to serve your own happiness, then I'd say you were doing it for the wrong reasons in the first place. If that isn't you goal, a promise of tranquility and joy is hardly a sufficient reason to give up your ambitions.
- fenwick67 9y ago
  Why else would somebody be ambitious other than the pursuit of happiness? Survival? Genuinely curious.
  - obastani 9y ago
    For example, because they believe in a cause -- this might still be pursuit of happiness in an abstract sense, but it's not pursuit of happiness in the immediate "I want fame/money to be happy" sense.
  - pharrington 9y ago
    Somebody would be ambitious because they're told to be ambitious, and because they see everybody else telling everybody else to be ambitious. Primates imprint from their environment.
  - cm2012 9y ago
    To make sure you can help the people you love. It is horrible to watch someone else suffer from something that a little bit of inconsequential money could solve.
  - JoshCole 9y ago
    Wanting to make a contribution to something larger then themselves. Wanting to accomplish something meaningful. Wanting to test themselves. There are a lot of different reasons completely unrelated to happiness that someone might have for being ambitious. On the whole, being ambitious and being happy are likely going to be in opposition to each other before the ambition is accomplished. A lot of things worthy of being described as ambitious are extremely hard by definition. There are likely to be many failures on the way. Perhaps years worth of failure. Perhaps someone's ambition will leave them crying themselves to sleep at night because they may never accomplish the goal and they hate that. Or perhaps their entire body is a mass of bruises or every muscle is sore because of how hard they are pushing their body.
    - nether 9y ago
      Yes, ambition usually requires sacrifice. I think the odds of really making it are vanishingly small though. It could be like daytrading, where 1% actually succeed and 99% lose a lot of money and sleep. Most people would find those odds insane, yet articles like this promote chasing that far-off, remote chance of a payoff. Accepting an average life is for the sane and reasonable, just as investing in index funds means accepting average returns.
    - xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
      But if they derive happiness from contributing to something larger than themselves, they are still working for their own happiness. No?
  - edanm 9y ago
    To help people / the world. Thank God we had ambitious people working to create vaccines, help feed the world, etc.
    - hawski 9y ago
      We are reaching border of philosophy. Helping people / the world survive better?
  - greenwhite 9y ago
    ambition in the context of self sacrifice can be quite powerful
    - newbear 9y ago
      Can you provide me an example of this? I like the idea but don't want to misunderstand it
      - greenwhite 9y ago
        Sure, I think this will probably just be reaffirming what you already interpreted the idea as but basically I think that the notion of humans being able to perceive self sacrifice in an abstract manner (as opposed to traditionally killing other humans as a means of sacrifice and whatnot) gave us the ability to perceive 'the future' in a sense. An example would be the parents in poor family working very hard day in and day out to ensure that their children go to college and secure future prosperity. That's just one example but you can think of countless different scenarios where people sacrifice a bit of their present to capture an ambitious future - or to make that present sacrifice in the name of ambition and future success. I actually heard all of this in a video but I can't for the life of me remember who said it, and it was put infinitely better than my explanation. If I remember I will let you know!
  - white-flame 9y ago
    All these peer responses actually agree with you. Why would people pursue noble, philosophical causes? Because it makes them happy to see those pursued. Why would somebody want the world around them to be better? Because it makes them happy to see the world be a better place. Why would somebody sacrifice of themselves to see a loved one better off? That's kind of the definition of love, that they're happy that their loved one is better off. This gets more tautological than philosophical.
    - Retra 9y ago
      You're trivializing people's motivations. People don't do things simply because it makes them happy. They also do them because they feel compelled to, even if it would not make them happy. People are even sometimes forced to do things because they don't have any other option, or because they don't know of anything better to do. Reducing all of this to varying degrees of happiness is sloppy and usually inaccurate.
      - white-flame 9y ago
        Like I said, it gets tautological. What is the difference between a compulsion, a desire, and a want? All could be defined as "that which would make me happy". And as fully acknowledged in some of my descriptions above, it's not that one ends up better off, but that one appreciates something happening for its own sake. All of these seem to be equivalent. None of it is trivialization, it's simply a cloud of motivation in which there aren't easy-to-draw lines of distinction.
  - Retra 9y ago
    You say "the pursuit of happiness", but I said "the pursuit of your own happiness." I can pursue the happiness of others.
- white-flame 9y ago
  Isn't tranquility and joy only serving your own happiness, too? I mean, it's literally less involved with others' social and financial positivity than pursuing business, even if you're only in business for your own success.
  - Retra 9y ago
    Sorry, I don't see how your comment applies to what I said.
nxsynonym 9y ago
There's a weird mentality in America (assuming that's where you are located) that average is bad. Average is just average. There's no reason you need to be a multi-millionaire with 6 houses, 12 cars, and endless spending cash. I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. When people talk about career goals, they usually only mean "money making goals". There's nothing wrong with working just enough to survive and finding satisfaction outside of spending money on crap you don't need. There's nothing "lazy" about making a living (even if its bare minimum to pay the essential bills). What's the point in working 80 hour weeks for a set number of years, spending money excessively, and having a heart attack by age 50 from being over worked? Personally I'd rather be dead broke and happy then over worked and stressed about un-important crap. That's not to say you shouldn't work hard towards your goals, they should just be defined out side of "make more money so I can impress my friends with a new car"
- loader 9y ago
  These same people will also vote against their own best interests because they think they'll be one of those well off people eventually.
- ShannonAlther 9y ago
  Hyperbole about stress-induced medical problems aside, money is quantifiably good. A man who makes 10x your salary can take 10x more vacations to the south of France, justify taking more time off work to spend with his family, doesn't have to worry as much about monetary concerns like loan payments or health problems, and so on. It's not just "impressing your friends", having a nice car can be a joy in and of itself, but I'm always weirded out by people who say they don't want social status.
  - skynode 9y ago
    I don't understand it either. I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. Guess we all know. There's really no alternate reality where it's much better to be average and have little or no options. I usually take the view that I'd listen more to you if, to prove your point more empirically, you got reasonably rich and then just decided to give away all your wealth and resign to some lonely cabin in Maine.
Taylor_OD 9y ago
My goals have been shifting over the last couple years from saving/changing/making a positive impact on the world to just helping people out when I can and enjoying my life. It's certainly freeing and honestly I'm probably doing more good in the world because I'm able to do more little things that actually help people.
bpodgursky 9y ago
Why do you feel the need to come to Hacker News (which is -- wait for it -- the aggregator associated with a _startup incubator_) nominally about startup news and spread the gospel of laziness? Like, I get that HN is "whatever hackers find interesting". But to come here and fill the comment section with discussion about how we'd all be better off not trying particularly hard is just obnoxious. Literally everywhere else on the internet is the right place for that.
- sideshowb 9y ago
  It's not laziness. It's working smarter not harder [towards the target of well-being]. Efficiency is definitely a hacker thing.
- mangodrunk 9y ago
  Do you not think there's value in trying to understand what makes oneself happy? If being "lazy" makes a person happy, then so be it. They can live that way. I'm sure some blue collar workers would think that startup people are lazy without producing much perceived value to society but still getting rich. I think it's good to know what you want in life, and know what makes you happy and then follow that, whatever it may be (assuming it's not harming others etc.). Or at the very least, know what makes you miserable and stop doing that.
verylittlemeat 9y ago
This is really a great comment and should be at the top of so many fluffy hacker news posts.

by nether 9y ago

Retra 9y ago

I mean, if you were trying to be ambitious only to serve your own happiness, then I'd say you were doing it for the wrong reasons in the first place. If that isn't you goal, a promise of tranquility and joy is hardly a sufficient reason to give up your ambitions.

fenwick67 9y ago
Why else would somebody be ambitious other than the pursuit of happiness? Survival? Genuinely curious.
- obastani 9y ago
  For example, because they believe in a cause -- this might still be pursuit of happiness in an abstract sense, but it's not pursuit of happiness in the immediate "I want fame/money to be happy" sense.
- pharrington 9y ago
  Somebody would be ambitious because they're told to be ambitious, and because they see everybody else telling everybody else to be ambitious. Primates imprint from their environment.
- cm2012 9y ago
  To make sure you can help the people you love. It is horrible to watch someone else suffer from something that a little bit of inconsequential money could solve.
- JoshCole 9y ago
  Wanting to make a contribution to something larger then themselves. Wanting to accomplish something meaningful. Wanting to test themselves. There are a lot of different reasons completely unrelated to happiness that someone might have for being ambitious. On the whole, being ambitious and being happy are likely going to be in opposition to each other before the ambition is accomplished. A lot of things worthy of being described as ambitious are extremely hard by definition. There are likely to be many failures on the way. Perhaps years worth of failure. Perhaps someone's ambition will leave them crying themselves to sleep at night because they may never accomplish the goal and they hate that. Or perhaps their entire body is a mass of bruises or every muscle is sore because of how hard they are pushing their body.
  - nether 9y ago
    Yes, ambition usually requires sacrifice. I think the odds of really making it are vanishingly small though. It could be like daytrading, where 1% actually succeed and 99% lose a lot of money and sleep. Most people would find those odds insane, yet articles like this promote chasing that far-off, remote chance of a payoff. Accepting an average life is for the sane and reasonable, just as investing in index funds means accepting average returns.
  - xxSparkleSxx 9y ago
    But if they derive happiness from contributing to something larger than themselves, they are still working for their own happiness. No?
- edanm 9y ago
  To help people / the world. Thank God we had ambitious people working to create vaccines, help feed the world, etc.
  - hawski 9y ago
    We are reaching border of philosophy. Helping people / the world survive better?
- greenwhite 9y ago
  ambition in the context of self sacrifice can be quite powerful
  - newbear 9y ago
    Can you provide me an example of this? I like the idea but don't want to misunderstand it
    - greenwhite 9y ago
      Sure, I think this will probably just be reaffirming what you already interpreted the idea as but basically I think that the notion of humans being able to perceive self sacrifice in an abstract manner (as opposed to traditionally killing other humans as a means of sacrifice and whatnot) gave us the ability to perceive 'the future' in a sense. An example would be the parents in poor family working very hard day in and day out to ensure that their children go to college and secure future prosperity. That's just one example but you can think of countless different scenarios where people sacrifice a bit of their present to capture an ambitious future - or to make that present sacrifice in the name of ambition and future success. I actually heard all of this in a video but I can't for the life of me remember who said it, and it was put infinitely better than my explanation. If I remember I will let you know!
- white-flame 9y ago
  All these peer responses actually agree with you. Why would people pursue noble, philosophical causes? Because it makes them happy to see those pursued. Why would somebody want the world around them to be better? Because it makes them happy to see the world be a better place. Why would somebody sacrifice of themselves to see a loved one better off? That's kind of the definition of love, that they're happy that their loved one is better off. This gets more tautological than philosophical.
  - Retra 9y ago
    You're trivializing people's motivations. People don't do things simply because it makes them happy. They also do them because they feel compelled to, even if it would not make them happy. People are even sometimes forced to do things because they don't have any other option, or because they don't know of anything better to do. Reducing all of this to varying degrees of happiness is sloppy and usually inaccurate.
    - white-flame 9y ago
      Like I said, it gets tautological. What is the difference between a compulsion, a desire, and a want? All could be defined as "that which would make me happy". And as fully acknowledged in some of my descriptions above, it's not that one ends up better off, but that one appreciates something happening for its own sake. All of these seem to be equivalent. None of it is trivialization, it's simply a cloud of motivation in which there aren't easy-to-draw lines of distinction.
- Retra 9y ago
  You say "the pursuit of happiness", but I said "the pursuit of your own happiness." I can pursue the happiness of others.
white-flame 9y ago
Isn't tranquility and joy only serving your own happiness, too? I mean, it's literally less involved with others' social and financial positivity than pursuing business, even if you're only in business for your own success.
- Retra 9y ago
  Sorry, I don't see how your comment applies to what I said.

nxsynonym 9y ago

There's a weird mentality in America (assuming that's where you are located) that average is bad. Average is just average. There's no reason you need to be a multi-millionaire with 6 houses, 12 cars, and endless spending cash. I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. When people talk about career goals, they usually only mean "money making goals". There's nothing wrong with working just enough to survive and finding satisfaction outside of spending money on crap you don't need. There's nothing "lazy" about making a living (even if its bare minimum to pay the essential bills). What's the point in working 80 hour weeks for a set number of years, spending money excessively, and having a heart attack by age 50 from being over worked? Personally I'd rather be dead broke and happy then over worked and stressed about un-important crap. That's not to say you shouldn't work hard towards your goals, they should just be defined out side of "make more money so I can impress my friends with a new car"

loader 9y ago
These same people will also vote against their own best interests because they think they'll be one of those well off people eventually.
ShannonAlther 9y ago
Hyperbole about stress-induced medical problems aside, money is quantifiably good. A man who makes 10x your salary can take 10x more vacations to the south of France, justify taking more time off work to spend with his family, doesn't have to worry as much about monetary concerns like loan payments or health problems, and so on. It's not just "impressing your friends", having a nice car can be a joy in and of itself, but I'm always weirded out by people who say they don't want social status.
- skynode 9y ago
  I don't understand it either. I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. Guess we all know. There's really no alternate reality where it's much better to be average and have little or no options. I usually take the view that I'd listen more to you if, to prove your point more empirically, you got reasonably rich and then just decided to give away all your wealth and resign to some lonely cabin in Maine.

Taylor_OD 9y ago

My goals have been shifting over the last couple years from saving/changing/making a positive impact on the world to just helping people out when I can and enjoying my life. It's certainly freeing and honestly I'm probably doing more good in the world because I'm able to do more little things that actually help people.

bpodgursky 9y ago

Why do you feel the need to come to Hacker News (which is -- wait for it -- the aggregator associated with a _startup incubator_) nominally about startup news and spread the gospel of laziness? Like, I get that HN is "whatever hackers find interesting". But to come here and fill the comment section with discussion about how we'd all be better off not trying particularly hard is just obnoxious. Literally everywhere else on the internet is the right place for that.

sideshowb 9y ago
It's not laziness. It's working smarter not harder [towards the target of well-being]. Efficiency is definitely a hacker thing.
mangodrunk 9y ago
Do you not think there's value in trying to understand what makes oneself happy? If being "lazy" makes a person happy, then so be it. They can live that way. I'm sure some blue collar workers would think that startup people are lazy without producing much perceived value to society but still getting rich. I think it's good to know what you want in life, and know what makes you happy and then follow that, whatever it may be (assuming it's not harming others etc.). Or at the very least, know what makes you miserable and stop doing that.

verylittlemeat 9y ago

This is really a great comment and should be at the top of so many fluffy hacker news posts.