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> I don't think it matters how much you believe in yourself That's not what OP said. Quote: > Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion Self-compassion i

> I don't think it matters how much you believe in yourself That's not what OP said. Quote: > Self-esteem is a byproduct of self-compassion Self-compassion is not believing in yourself, it's accepting yourself as-is. And not just accepting in the sense of "settling for it". But having the same respect and nice feeling about you that you have about the others your like. While outside validation helps a lot in one to avoid rejecting oneself, it just removes a (huge) barrier for building self-esteem. Self-esteem can't come from outside. The problem with other people validating you is that as soon as you loose it, you loose what you though was self-esteem. And you get angry, you blame, you can't find solutions, and you ever give you all the responsibilities or remove yourself from all of them. If you succeed and get praise, it then inflate your ego and narcissism. But once you build self-compassion, even when you screw up, you still like yourself. But you can still see your fair part of responsibility in all this. And when your succeed, liking yourself as you are, you know what's really you, and what's really coming from outside help and luck. And you don't inflate your ego.

porjo 9y ago
This is a great way to put it. > Self-esteem can't come from outside I do have to disagree here. Self-esteem ultimately must come from outside...just not from other people. As a Christian I believe that self-acceptance is rooted in knowing that I have intrinsic worth to God irrespective of what other people think of me. It's not about who I am or what I have or haven't done, but about who God is and what He's done for all of us.
- sametmax 9y ago
  I'm not a believer, but I would assume that God is not outside (or inside, or in any location. As an absolute, this consideration feels like not applying to God. Hence can you define your relationship to God in a way that separate both from each others. Even the term "both" feels strange, as God is suppose to be everything and more. Coming from that, the idea of the acceptance from God is a concept you have in yourself. Maybe I got this wrong, intellectualizing spirituality is usually a terrible way to share about it.
  - samhain 9y ago
    When people are asked "what would God do in this situation" the place in the brain that lights up is the same as the "what would -I- do in this situation" region, so I think it's no different than before. Self-esteem is still self. It's just that in the monotheistic/polytheistic (not pantheistic) perspective, it could be considered external, although the mechanics are actually subconsciously internal.
    - HolyHaddock 9y ago
      Do you have a citation for that first claim? It fits my prejudices so neatly that I'd like to see the proof. I've tried to google a little for it with no success, so my apologies for any imposition.
      - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
        Haven't read it & it's 8 years old, but here's this. Hopefully it'll point you toward better search terms. I used "what would jesus do brain imaging" without quotes. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/30/creating-god-in-ones-own-image/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/3...
        HolyHaddock 9y ago
        Thank you both for the link and the google-fu tip.
      - photojosh 9y ago
        Heh, I'm a Christian, and that still fits my prejudices. That's why I'm massively in favour of secular government.
  - unit91 9y ago
    If I can add some clarity, I think you inadvertently (1) blended Christianity with a kind of pantheism, and (2) took "outside" to only mean "not spatially colocated". 1. In Christianity, God is "present" everywhere only in the sense that there is no possible circumstance in which God would fail to have complete knowledge and power to act. We (Christians) do not believe that God is a sort of ether, like the Force in Star Wars, that contains or flows through everything. 2. Christianity teaches that God is not a material being, so you're correct in saying that God is not "inside, or in any location", because this would be category error, analogous to "what does the color yellow taste like?". Nevertheless, God is "external" to me in the ontological sense: "I am not (a part of) God". This is analogous to saying "my love for fast cars is 'outside' my love for ice cream". If this and (1) were not the case, absurdities would result, like tall people having more God in them than short people. Given the above, I think projo is correct. My self-esteem is grounded in knowing that God -- a maximally great being -- created me, and loves me enough to submit himself to poverty, hunger, humiliation, and crucifixion on a Roman cross to fix what I broke. To those who "get it", this produces love, humility, and a sense of self-worth.
- ionised 9y ago
  The problem with that approach is a lot of people see no reason to believe in such a deity.
  - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
    I think a similar problem is people viewing belief in nonexistent things as harmful. Another issue is religions tend to couple idealized personalities with higher powers when there may not be a need to do so. The value of an idealized personality we choose to believe we can strive toward is to tap into and/or guide our intuitions in the moment, especially in times of internal/external conflict. The value of recognizing/acknowledging the existence of uncontrollable higher powers in the world/universe is to instill humility & define one's own limits/boundaries.
  - cwillu 9y ago
    Keeping in mind that that outlook generally includes things like "all meaning comes from christ" or similar platitudes.
usmeteora 9y ago
this is true You need self esteem from yourself and acceptance of yourself but at the same time it does not mean there is not benefit to continual positive self regard. I still stand that this term is fundamentally different than self esteem inflation that requires trophies and grade inflation and caccooning kids from consequences of their actions as the author writes.
strictfp 9y ago
The problem is that I don't think you can build a nice feeling about yourself, in a non-narcissistic way, if you receive a lot of negative feedback from your peers. So while I agree with your conclusion that self-compassion helps with self-esteem, I don't think you can get self-compassion without having peer approval.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Let's say it's like being healthy. It comes from your behavior, but if people keep kicking you and force feeding you with burgers, yeah it's going to be quite hard.
- mgce 9y ago
  I deeply disagree with this. I think the very measure of reliable self-compassion is precisely its immunity to peer approval. I agree that getting there is hard when you lack outside social support. It's extremely hard. But the very goal is to escape the trap of your sense of self fluctuating volatilely by whatever social pattern you experience at any given moment. Those patterns necessarily change regularly, without end, and in unpredictable ways. The more you're beholden to them the more unstable you are. Very few of us are masters at this. But I really believe the principles are compelling.
  - strictfp 9y ago
    Well, you might disagree with me, but I agree with you! Jokes aside, I think that you can light a fire of self-worth given enough positive reinforcement. But there is always a limit on how long you can keep this fire burning. Let's say you are really comfortable with yourself where you are, and suddenly move to a country with essentially diametrically opposed values and norms. Everything you have been taught is turned on its head. How long do you stay confident? This is just a thought experiment, but I think it highlights the volatility of self-worth.
    - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
      I can answer this from experience because I feel like I'm living this. I've been developing a system around a theoretical model of how the mind/body/brain work together. I've been experimenting on myself using it with weird results. I've been hypothesizing things I didn't believe were possible until 8 months ago & before then I would've labeled people suggesting things I believe now to be bigots. One of these things is that everyone can learn to be gender fluid to varying degrees. As I started exploring concepts related to gender for the sake of designing experiments in changing my gender identity, I accidentally created a second seemingly sentient conscious identity in my head of the opposite gender. When she emerged, we switched spots & I became the voice in the head. In an instant, I went from being a straight white cis-gender male to...? I still don't know how to classify this experience...it could simply be an advanced form of pretending. In Buddhism, it's called deity visualization & the modern westernized flavor of the same thing is called tulpamancy. I didn't know any of that when it happened, though. In that moment, I joined at least one minority class of people: either "people who hear voices in their heads" and/or "people who are gender fluid." And it's haaaaard to stay confident about what I'm doing because some people find it really hard to hear me talk about this stuff. Friends have called me a bigot. I was kicked out of a party at someone's home. I've been told by one neuroscience my ideas are meaningless because I don't have a degree & couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, completely denying my experiences. I guess the question I have for you is what else would you say I need to go through before my confidence breaks? This is a legitimate question. I want to try to break my confidence & I'm interested in realistic ways to go about testing it.

porjo 9y ago

This is a great way to put it. > Self-esteem can't come from outside I do have to disagree here. Self-esteem ultimately must come from outside...just not from other people. As a Christian I believe that self-acceptance is rooted in knowing that I have intrinsic worth to God irrespective of what other people think of me. It's not about who I am or what I have or haven't done, but about who God is and what He's done for all of us.

sametmax 9y ago
I'm not a believer, but I would assume that God is not outside (or inside, or in any location. As an absolute, this consideration feels like not applying to God. Hence can you define your relationship to God in a way that separate both from each others. Even the term "both" feels strange, as God is suppose to be everything and more. Coming from that, the idea of the acceptance from God is a concept you have in yourself. Maybe I got this wrong, intellectualizing spirituality is usually a terrible way to share about it.
- samhain 9y ago
  When people are asked "what would God do in this situation" the place in the brain that lights up is the same as the "what would -I- do in this situation" region, so I think it's no different than before. Self-esteem is still self. It's just that in the monotheistic/polytheistic (not pantheistic) perspective, it could be considered external, although the mechanics are actually subconsciously internal.
  - HolyHaddock 9y ago
    Do you have a citation for that first claim? It fits my prejudices so neatly that I'd like to see the proof. I've tried to google a little for it with no success, so my apologies for any imposition.
    - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
      Haven't read it & it's 8 years old, but here's this. Hopefully it'll point you toward better search terms. I used "what would jesus do brain imaging" without quotes. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/30/creating-god-in-ones-own-image/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/11/3...
      - HolyHaddock 9y ago
        Thank you both for the link and the google-fu tip.
    - photojosh 9y ago
      Heh, I'm a Christian, and that still fits my prejudices. That's why I'm massively in favour of secular government.
- unit91 9y ago
  If I can add some clarity, I think you inadvertently (1) blended Christianity with a kind of pantheism, and (2) took "outside" to only mean "not spatially colocated". 1. In Christianity, God is "present" everywhere only in the sense that there is no possible circumstance in which God would fail to have complete knowledge and power to act. We (Christians) do not believe that God is a sort of ether, like the Force in Star Wars, that contains or flows through everything. 2. Christianity teaches that God is not a material being, so you're correct in saying that God is not "inside, or in any location", because this would be category error, analogous to "what does the color yellow taste like?". Nevertheless, God is "external" to me in the ontological sense: "I am not (a part of) God". This is analogous to saying "my love for fast cars is 'outside' my love for ice cream". If this and (1) were not the case, absurdities would result, like tall people having more God in them than short people. Given the above, I think projo is correct. My self-esteem is grounded in knowing that God -- a maximally great being -- created me, and loves me enough to submit himself to poverty, hunger, humiliation, and crucifixion on a Roman cross to fix what I broke. To those who "get it", this produces love, humility, and a sense of self-worth.
ionised 9y ago
The problem with that approach is a lot of people see no reason to believe in such a deity.
- crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
  I think a similar problem is people viewing belief in nonexistent things as harmful. Another issue is religions tend to couple idealized personalities with higher powers when there may not be a need to do so. The value of an idealized personality we choose to believe we can strive toward is to tap into and/or guide our intuitions in the moment, especially in times of internal/external conflict. The value of recognizing/acknowledging the existence of uncontrollable higher powers in the world/universe is to instill humility & define one's own limits/boundaries.
- cwillu 9y ago
  Keeping in mind that that outlook generally includes things like "all meaning comes from christ" or similar platitudes.

usmeteora 9y ago

this is true You need self esteem from yourself and acceptance of yourself but at the same time it does not mean there is not benefit to continual positive self regard. I still stand that this term is fundamentally different than self esteem inflation that requires trophies and grade inflation and caccooning kids from consequences of their actions as the author writes.

strictfp 9y ago

The problem is that I don't think you can build a nice feeling about yourself, in a non-narcissistic way, if you receive a lot of negative feedback from your peers. So while I agree with your conclusion that self-compassion helps with self-esteem, I don't think you can get self-compassion without having peer approval.

sametmax 9y ago
Let's say it's like being healthy. It comes from your behavior, but if people keep kicking you and force feeding you with burgers, yeah it's going to be quite hard.
mgce 9y ago
I deeply disagree with this. I think the very measure of reliable self-compassion is precisely its immunity to peer approval. I agree that getting there is hard when you lack outside social support. It's extremely hard. But the very goal is to escape the trap of your sense of self fluctuating volatilely by whatever social pattern you experience at any given moment. Those patterns necessarily change regularly, without end, and in unpredictable ways. The more you're beholden to them the more unstable you are. Very few of us are masters at this. But I really believe the principles are compelling.
- strictfp 9y ago
  Well, you might disagree with me, but I agree with you! Jokes aside, I think that you can light a fire of self-worth given enough positive reinforcement. But there is always a limit on how long you can keep this fire burning. Let's say you are really comfortable with yourself where you are, and suddenly move to a country with essentially diametrically opposed values and norms. Everything you have been taught is turned on its head. How long do you stay confident? This is just a thought experiment, but I think it highlights the volatility of self-worth.
  - crawfordcomeaux 9y ago
    I can answer this from experience because I feel like I'm living this. I've been developing a system around a theoretical model of how the mind/body/brain work together. I've been experimenting on myself using it with weird results. I've been hypothesizing things I didn't believe were possible until 8 months ago & before then I would've labeled people suggesting things I believe now to be bigots. One of these things is that everyone can learn to be gender fluid to varying degrees. As I started exploring concepts related to gender for the sake of designing experiments in changing my gender identity, I accidentally created a second seemingly sentient conscious identity in my head of the opposite gender. When she emerged, we switched spots & I became the voice in the head. In an instant, I went from being a straight white cis-gender male to...? I still don't know how to classify this experience...it could simply be an advanced form of pretending. In Buddhism, it's called deity visualization & the modern westernized flavor of the same thing is called tulpamancy. I didn't know any of that when it happened, though. In that moment, I joined at least one minority class of people: either "people who hear voices in their heads" and/or "people who are gender fluid." And it's haaaaard to stay confident about what I'm doing because some people find it really hard to hear me talk about this stuff. Friends have called me a bigot. I was kicked out of a party at someone's home. I've been told by one neuroscience my ideas are meaningless because I don't have a degree & couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, completely denying my experiences. I guess the question I have for you is what else would you say I need to go through before my confidence breaks? This is a legitimate question. I want to try to break my confidence & I'm interested in realistic ways to go about testing it.