4 ms·

There's a hypothesis that this is why we (normally) forget our dreams; it prevents us from getting confused about what's real.

andai 9y ago
Ahh, thanks, I hadn't thought of that! That would explain a lot.
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
My hypothesis is that dreams don't actually happen as we sleep, just that the conscious state "arrives" in the brain before the cleaning/storing processes have completed. The brain then creates a memory to explain what's hanging around from the clean-up. So the dream happens during waking, the brain inventing new parts as we try and recall the dream so that the dream state can be established from a logical timeline. Analogy: a magical secretary is tidying your desk and files. They pull out some files to re-order, put some files you were working on away, lift it pages/images to see where those files should go, etc.. You interrupt them and they scuttle away. You don't believe in magical secretaries so you quickly (and inconsistently) imagine that you were working on the files that were out making a story that explains how those files came to be there, in that arrangement. Presumably if scanning techniques can show images of what we see in dreams that provides some evidence against this hypothesis, however it doesn't defeat it unless it shows we _experience_ those images through the period when we suppose we're dreaming. Evidence that refutes this idea gladly considered.
- stonesixone 9y ago
  If you've ever experienced lucid dreaming, I believe your hypothesis can be considered refuted _while_ you are in a lucid dream (for the same reason that the phrase "I think therefore I am" carries any weight). After the fact though, it doesn't seem possible to distinguish between a real memory of a lucid dream and your idea of a created memory of a lucid dream. Another possible argument against is if a partner next to you observes you tossing and turning and possibly speaking in your sleep over time, and then you wake up and describe a dream you were experiencing consistent with what they saw. How would you explain the tossing and turning and talking in one's sleep in your hypothesis?
  - gpderetta 9y ago
    People have been able to communicate to the outside when lucid dreaming (via eye movement mostly), during controlled experiments. So at the very least lucid dreams happen in 'real time'.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      I've not heard of this phenomenon, communicating with a person in a dream state: could you cite it? People saying things could be like the images appearing in the visual cortex that I tried to address in brief. They can appear, be processed, provide external output and such without necessarily being part of a dream experience happening at that time. Back to my analogy, the magic secretary plays back some sound files, which maybe someone in a different office hears and attributes to you being present, but which you aren't "there" to experience. When you start to wake to consciousness you see the files and infer you were working on them, your partner mentions utterances consistent with one file and your brain meshes that in to part of the "story" it is writing of the dream experience (a la deja-vu).
      - gpderetta 9y ago
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24171230 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24171230
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    I considered lucid dreaming, indeed that was the spur that drove me to this hypothesis - your suggested counter argument was my thought there, one can't tell if one constructed a dream with a lucid characteristic after waking rather than actually having a lucid dream experience extending through the time you were asleep. See however the sibling comment.

andai 9y ago

Ahh, thanks, I hadn't thought of that! That would explain a lot.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

My hypothesis is that dreams don't actually happen as we sleep, just that the conscious state "arrives" in the brain before the cleaning/storing processes have completed. The brain then creates a memory to explain what's hanging around from the clean-up. So the dream happens during waking, the brain inventing new parts as we try and recall the dream so that the dream state can be established from a logical timeline. Analogy: a magical secretary is tidying your desk and files. They pull out some files to re-order, put some files you were working on away, lift it pages/images to see where those files should go, etc.. You interrupt them and they scuttle away. You don't believe in magical secretaries so you quickly (and inconsistently) imagine that you were working on the files that were out making a story that explains how those files came to be there, in that arrangement. Presumably if scanning techniques can show images of what we see in dreams that provides some evidence against this hypothesis, however it doesn't defeat it unless it shows we _experience_ those images through the period when we suppose we're dreaming. Evidence that refutes this idea gladly considered.

stonesixone 9y ago
If you've ever experienced lucid dreaming, I believe your hypothesis can be considered refuted _while_ you are in a lucid dream (for the same reason that the phrase "I think therefore I am" carries any weight). After the fact though, it doesn't seem possible to distinguish between a real memory of a lucid dream and your idea of a created memory of a lucid dream. Another possible argument against is if a partner next to you observes you tossing and turning and possibly speaking in your sleep over time, and then you wake up and describe a dream you were experiencing consistent with what they saw. How would you explain the tossing and turning and talking in one's sleep in your hypothesis?
- gpderetta 9y ago
  People have been able to communicate to the outside when lucid dreaming (via eye movement mostly), during controlled experiments. So at the very least lucid dreams happen in 'real time'.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    I've not heard of this phenomenon, communicating with a person in a dream state: could you cite it? People saying things could be like the images appearing in the visual cortex that I tried to address in brief. They can appear, be processed, provide external output and such without necessarily being part of a dream experience happening at that time. Back to my analogy, the magic secretary plays back some sound files, which maybe someone in a different office hears and attributes to you being present, but which you aren't "there" to experience. When you start to wake to consciousness you see the files and infer you were working on them, your partner mentions utterances consistent with one file and your brain meshes that in to part of the "story" it is writing of the dream experience (a la deja-vu).
    - gpderetta 9y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24171230 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24171230
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  I considered lucid dreaming, indeed that was the spur that drove me to this hypothesis - your suggested counter argument was my thought there, one can't tell if one constructed a dream with a lucid characteristic after waking rather than actually having a lucid dream experience extending through the time you were asleep. See however the sibling comment.