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If you don't understand why businesses don't like unions, you've never owned a business. Also, historically, unions in the USA for whatever reason a lot of time

by ythn 9y ago

If you don't understand why businesses don't like unions, you've never owned a business. Also, historically, unions in the USA for whatever reason a lot of times end up becoming mafioso (not sure if it's the same in other countries).

rectang 9y ago
Yet without unions, employees are on their own to evaluate the non-obvious risks and hidden costs in deals such as this one. It's massive information asymmetry leading inevitably to exploitation; it's far from the ideal of perfect information and distorts the labor marketplace, leading to huge inefficiencies in the labor economy. We desperately need innovation in how labor unions are structured and compete with each other to reduce the drag they impose while keeping the benefit they provide.
- qmarchi 9y ago
  There are (was) unions around Walmart, however, historically, they're just massive cash grabs operating in locations where unionization is favorable and can be forced.
Splendor 9y ago
I don't think anyone lacks understanding as to why businesses dislike unions.
enraged_camel 9y ago
Meh. We have unions to thank for the vast majority of workplace protections as well as things like the five-day workweek. In light of this, I'm okay with unions not being perfect.
bjl 9y ago
Right, businesses don't like unions because they decrease their power over employees. That's not a good argument against them, however. If anything, I'd say its a good argument for them.
- api 9y ago
  I've often heard that the biggest problem with unions isn't higher salary and benefit demands but inflexibility. Unions often insist on things like work rules (who gets to do what) and are resistant to automation or other forms of efficiency improvement. They basically end up mandating that things never change, eventually killing the host. From what I know of union work rules I can't even imaging trying to run any form of high-tech manufacturing enterprise under those conditions. You just couldn't do anything. That kind of bureaucracy and restriction is death to any kind of innovation. I've heard that unions in some other countries like Germany and Japan are different. I'd be curious to hear a German take on it.
  - bjl 9y ago
    Union rules change all the time. Management just isn't usually willing to offer sufficient incentive during negotiations, since that would eat in to their profits.
    - api 9y ago
      Ultimately I think this comes down to the paradox of thrift. You want everything as cheap as possible, which means you want everyone else to not belong to a union. But you want to be paid as much as possible, so you want to belong to a union. Your economic self-interest would be maximized if you were the only unionized person on Earth... but of course that's impossible. It's not just "corporate greed." I mean that definitely exists and many executives are over-compensated, but compared to other costs like capital, labor, and taxes, that's usually just not that big of a cost center for a large company. That's part of how they get away with it. If CXOs were a significant cost center the shareholders would be less tolerant of those fat compensation packages.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        Everyone wants everything cheap. A popular assertion, but one which ignores the demonstrable willingness of people to pay more at places like farmer's markets or shop at stores that don't always offer the lowest prices or widest selection. Since many people willingly make sacrifices on either price or convenience, you're arguing from a flawed premise.
notfromhere 9y ago
businesses don't like unions because with a union they cant treat their employees like expendable cogs. The Union/Mafia problems stems from unions getting suppressed by corporate-hired goons, forcing unions get their own goons to fight back. said goons tended to be the local mafioso
- vkou 9y ago
  Also, construction (Which is notorios for the presence of 'mafiosos') is a business where... A lot of organized crime is involved, regardless of whether or not the work is unionized.

by ythn 9y ago

rectang 9y ago

Yet without unions, employees are on their own to evaluate the non-obvious risks and hidden costs in deals such as this one. It's massive information asymmetry leading inevitably to exploitation; it's far from the ideal of perfect information and distorts the labor marketplace, leading to huge inefficiencies in the labor economy. We desperately need innovation in how labor unions are structured and compete with each other to reduce the drag they impose while keeping the benefit they provide.

qmarchi 9y ago
There are (was) unions around Walmart, however, historically, they're just massive cash grabs operating in locations where unionization is favorable and can be forced.

Splendor 9y ago

I don't think anyone lacks understanding as to why businesses dislike unions.

enraged_camel 9y ago

Meh. We have unions to thank for the vast majority of workplace protections as well as things like the five-day workweek. In light of this, I'm okay with unions not being perfect.

bjl 9y ago

Right, businesses don't like unions because they decrease their power over employees. That's not a good argument against them, however. If anything, I'd say its a good argument for them.

api 9y ago
I've often heard that the biggest problem with unions isn't higher salary and benefit demands but inflexibility. Unions often insist on things like work rules (who gets to do what) and are resistant to automation or other forms of efficiency improvement. They basically end up mandating that things never change, eventually killing the host. From what I know of union work rules I can't even imaging trying to run any form of high-tech manufacturing enterprise under those conditions. You just couldn't do anything. That kind of bureaucracy and restriction is death to any kind of innovation. I've heard that unions in some other countries like Germany and Japan are different. I'd be curious to hear a German take on it.
- bjl 9y ago
  Union rules change all the time. Management just isn't usually willing to offer sufficient incentive during negotiations, since that would eat in to their profits.
  - api 9y ago
    Ultimately I think this comes down to the paradox of thrift. You want everything as cheap as possible, which means you want everyone else to not belong to a union. But you want to be paid as much as possible, so you want to belong to a union. Your economic self-interest would be maximized if you were the only unionized person on Earth... but of course that's impossible. It's not just "corporate greed." I mean that definitely exists and many executives are over-compensated, but compared to other costs like capital, labor, and taxes, that's usually just not that big of a cost center for a large company. That's part of how they get away with it. If CXOs were a significant cost center the shareholders would be less tolerant of those fat compensation packages.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      Everyone wants everything cheap. A popular assertion, but one which ignores the demonstrable willingness of people to pay more at places like farmer's markets or shop at stores that don't always offer the lowest prices or widest selection. Since many people willingly make sacrifices on either price or convenience, you're arguing from a flawed premise.

notfromhere 9y ago

businesses don't like unions because with a union they cant treat their employees like expendable cogs. The Union/Mafia problems stems from unions getting suppressed by corporate-hired goons, forcing unions get their own goons to fight back. said goons tended to be the local mafioso

vkou 9y ago
Also, construction (Which is notorios for the presence of 'mafiosos') is a business where... A lot of organized crime is involved, regardless of whether or not the work is unionized.