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I look forward to learning more about this product. I love that we're moving non-x86 into mainstream consumer products like this (and not limited to low-end ch

I look forward to learning more about this product. I love that we're moving non-x86 into mainstream consumer products like this (and not limited to low-end chromebooks, e.g.). ARM SoCs lack the backward compatible x86 BIOS-style bootstrap. This is great because it's kinda crazy to think about booting into stuff like MBR, real mode, etc in 2017. But this is bad because without good standards it's really tricky to have a generic installer for another OS. Also, all or nearly all ARM SoCs have signed bootloaders. Great: less fear of a rootkit/virus hiding in my system. Awful: often used to protect subsidies or other business model hijinks; can't install an alternate OS.

leggomylibro 9y ago
Yeah, that's my biggest fear for this computer. I would snap up two or three in a heartbeat if I could put my favorite Linux distro on it. My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. These Microsoft ARM machines are encouraging, since they should bring new entries into the ultraportable market, but I think I'll hold off until it's clear that we'll have options with regards to the software.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. So you claim running X sessions in Chrome tabs is better than running X directly?
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    Well...yes, sometimes. You could run a WM in a chrome tab, but I prefer breaking out individual programs. Like, I can have KiCAD running in one tab, with the datasheets for parts I'm using in nearby tabs. Or I can just break an IDE out into its own window. It's a small screen, so having the whole browser window dedicated to the program is nice, and you can even use fullscreen mode and navigate with ctrl+[shift+]tab. ChromeOS has a nice UI. Certainly much nicer than XFCE running in a browser tab.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      > Like, I can have KiCAD running in one tab, with the datasheets for parts I'm using in nearby tabs. To me this rather sounds like one should use another window manager than the default one that usual GNU/Linux distributions install if one has a small screen. I'm no GNU/Linux wizard, but I somehow expect that such a window manager already exists.
      - leggomylibro 9y ago
        It does, and it's called ChromeOS.
        wolfgke 9y ago
        So you claim ChromeOS is a window manager?
        6Typos 9y ago
        I also use this setup. In fact, ChromeOs acts as a Window Manager, because it deals with how each application is organized in the screen/ shown to the user; in this setup, no Chrome Apps are used (only programs from chroot are used) tl;dr: It can be thought as a WM, although it isn't one
        khedoros1 9y ago
        ChromeOS is an OS. It includes a window manager "Ash". Saying ChromeOS to imply its own native window manager (rather than a generic Linux one running in a chroot on ChromOS) makes sense in context. Or at least enough sense that your question seems more mocking than clarifying.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
        I mean, there are tiling window managers that are happy to tab windows; I use i3 and do this all the time. Bonus: tiling window managers are a great use of limited screen real estate even when showing multiple windows.
- kevin_b_er 9y ago
  "Disabling Secure Boot must not be possible on ARM systems." #20 in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/systems#system_fundamentals_firmware_uefisecureboot https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/com... Digital restrictions management lockdowns prevent installing Linux.
  - scholia 9y ago
    There's nothing to stop any company from making its own laptops with ARM processors, designing them to run Linux, and pre-installing Linux. You could do it yourself. Maybe this is your chance to become rich and famous. Not sure why your first thought is to ride on the back of Microsoft's work...
    - wyldfire 9y ago
      Having access to a large target market gives you advantageous pricing negotiation and support from SoC designers, board manufacturers, etc. Sure, you could create a brand new electronics brand and try to market it. But it would be super expensive and take a long time to get off the ground.
      - scholia 9y ago
        Which simply avoids the issue I raised. How long has Linux been going?
- flamedoge 9y ago
  But you know what you really want. Full fledged linux experience with all the drivers backed by Google for 12 hr battery life. ChromeOS isn't even scratching the surface of how linux can maximize use of the hardware. I mean you expect to actually do productive work on tabs that load javascripts on an ARM machine?
albeva 9y ago
This is lunacy. It will break compatibility with nearly all software out there. From games to productivity apps. Like the stuff I actually use a PC for.
- dpark 9y ago
  > the new operating system will include x86 emulation, giving it the ability to run 32-bit Windows desktop applications unmodified.
  - davrosthedalek 9y ago
    a) only 32bit b) At what speed though? x86 emulation isn't trivial, and arm seems to be sufficiently different in architecture to incur a large translation overhead.
    - SyneRyder 9y ago
      Microsoft has had videos out for a while of their x86 emulation. They have a demo of loading Photoshop CC, and it looks close to native speed, though I notice a bit of window refresh. Looks usable, but I'd like to see more demos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&t=80s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&t=80s
      - kbenson 9y ago
        Not only that, but if you are making UWP packages (for the windows store? I'm not sure if they are standalone as well), you can ship both x86 and ARM binaries together. I'm probably butchering the details, but the presentation and accompanying HN discussion was interesting[1]. The video is pretty cool, as they demo real running x86 and ARM binaries on the same system, and explain some seriously cool stuff WRT x86 emulation. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406
      - davrosthedalek 9y ago
        But isn't Photoshop a prime example of a program you'd want to run in 64bit mode? Mo'ram mo'better?
chocolatebunny 9y ago
doesn't UEFI resolve all that?
- yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
  It does. Complicated in its own way, but better :)
ryukafalz 9y ago
>Awful: often used to protect subsidies or other business model hijinks; can't install an alternate OS. And there's the rub. Microsoft forbids manufacturers of ARM-based Windows devices from allowing customers to disable or customize secure boot.[0] I doubt they'll change that going forward. >On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only Standard Mode may be enabled. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/systems#system_fundamentals_firmware_uefisecureboot https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/com...
- suihkulokki 9y ago
  Shim is signed with microsoft key, does it still require custom mode for booting?
  - Nullabillity 9y ago
    Yes. Shim requires that your kernel is also signed, and also disables support for kernel modules.
    - xvilka 9y ago
      And this shows why forcing that in shim was a bad idea. They should have made a version breaking the chain, and allowing to boot unsigned kernel.
      - Nullabillity 9y ago
        No, this shows why (forcing) Secure Boot was a bad idea. Allowing Shim to load unsigned kernels would be equivalent to having it bypass SB in the first place, which Microsoft would presumably never sign.
Nullabillity 9y ago
> This is great because it's kinda crazy to think about booting into stuff like MBR, real mode, etc in 2017. This doesn't happen on UEFI computers, unless you use the CSM.

leggomylibro 9y ago

Yeah, that's my biggest fear for this computer. I would snap up two or three in a heartbeat if I could put my favorite Linux distro on it. My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. These Microsoft ARM machines are encouraging, since they should bring new entries into the ultraportable market, but I think I'll hold off until it's clear that we'll have options with regards to the software.

wolfgke 9y ago
> My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. So you claim running X sessions in Chrome tabs is better than running X directly?
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Well...yes, sometimes. You could run a WM in a chrome tab, but I prefer breaking out individual programs. Like, I can have KiCAD running in one tab, with the datasheets for parts I'm using in nearby tabs. Or I can just break an IDE out into its own window. It's a small screen, so having the whole browser window dedicated to the program is nice, and you can even use fullscreen mode and navigate with ctrl+[shift+]tab. ChromeOS has a nice UI. Certainly much nicer than XFCE running in a browser tab.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > Like, I can have KiCAD running in one tab, with the datasheets for parts I'm using in nearby tabs. To me this rather sounds like one should use another window manager than the default one that usual GNU/Linux distributions install if one has a small screen. I'm no GNU/Linux wizard, but I somehow expect that such a window manager already exists.
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      It does, and it's called ChromeOS.
      - wolfgke 9y ago
        So you claim ChromeOS is a window manager?
        6Typos 9y ago
        I also use this setup. In fact, ChromeOs acts as a Window Manager, because it deals with how each application is organized in the screen/ shown to the user; in this setup, no Chrome Apps are used (only programs from chroot are used) tl;dr: It can be thought as a WM, although it isn't one
        khedoros1 9y ago
        ChromeOS is an OS. It includes a window manager "Ash". Saying ChromeOS to imply its own native window manager (rather than a generic Linux one running in a chroot on ChromOS) makes sense in context. Or at least enough sense that your question seems more mocking than clarifying.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
      I mean, there are tiling window managers that are happy to tab windows; I use i3 and do this all the time. Bonus: tiling window managers are a great use of limited screen real estate even when showing multiple windows.
kevin_b_er 9y ago
"Disabling Secure Boot must not be possible on ARM systems." #20 in https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/systems#system_fundamentals_firmware_uefisecureboot https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/com... Digital restrictions management lockdowns prevent installing Linux.
- scholia 9y ago
  There's nothing to stop any company from making its own laptops with ARM processors, designing them to run Linux, and pre-installing Linux. You could do it yourself. Maybe this is your chance to become rich and famous. Not sure why your first thought is to ride on the back of Microsoft's work...
  - wyldfire 9y ago
    Having access to a large target market gives you advantageous pricing negotiation and support from SoC designers, board manufacturers, etc. Sure, you could create a brand new electronics brand and try to market it. But it would be super expensive and take a long time to get off the ground.
    - scholia 9y ago
      Which simply avoids the issue I raised. How long has Linux been going?
flamedoge 9y ago
But you know what you really want. Full fledged linux experience with all the drivers backed by Google for 12 hr battery life. ChromeOS isn't even scratching the surface of how linux can maximize use of the hardware. I mean you expect to actually do productive work on tabs that load javascripts on an ARM machine?

albeva 9y ago

This is lunacy. It will break compatibility with nearly all software out there. From games to productivity apps. Like the stuff I actually use a PC for.

dpark 9y ago
> the new operating system will include x86 emulation, giving it the ability to run 32-bit Windows desktop applications unmodified.
- davrosthedalek 9y ago
  a) only 32bit b) At what speed though? x86 emulation isn't trivial, and arm seems to be sufficiently different in architecture to incur a large translation overhead.
  - SyneRyder 9y ago
    Microsoft has had videos out for a while of their x86 emulation. They have a demo of loading Photoshop CC, and it looks close to native speed, though I notice a bit of window refresh. Looks usable, but I'd like to see more demos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&t=80s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U&t=80s
    - kbenson 9y ago
      Not only that, but if you are making UWP packages (for the windows store? I'm not sure if they are standalone as well), you can ship both x86 and ARM binaries together. I'm probably butchering the details, but the presentation and accompanying HN discussion was interesting[1]. The video is pretty cool, as they demo real running x86 and ARM binaries on the same system, and explain some seriously cool stuff WRT x86 emulation. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406
    - davrosthedalek 9y ago
      But isn't Photoshop a prime example of a program you'd want to run in 64bit mode? Mo'ram mo'better?

chocolatebunny 9y ago

doesn't UEFI resolve all that?

yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
It does. Complicated in its own way, but better :)

ryukafalz 9y ago

>Awful: often used to protect subsidies or other business model hijinks; can't install an alternate OS. And there's the rub. Microsoft forbids manufacturers of ARM-based Windows devices from allowing customers to disable or customize secure boot.[0] I doubt they'll change that going forward. >On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only Standard Mode may be enabled. [0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/compatibility/systems#system_fundamentals_firmware_uefisecureboot https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/com...

suihkulokki 9y ago
Shim is signed with microsoft key, does it still require custom mode for booting?
- Nullabillity 9y ago
  Yes. Shim requires that your kernel is also signed, and also disables support for kernel modules.
  - xvilka 9y ago
    And this shows why forcing that in shim was a bad idea. They should have made a version breaking the chain, and allowing to boot unsigned kernel.
    - Nullabillity 9y ago
      No, this shows why (forcing) Secure Boot was a bad idea. Allowing Shim to load unsigned kernels would be equivalent to having it bypass SB in the first place, which Microsoft would presumably never sign.

Nullabillity 9y ago

> This is great because it's kinda crazy to think about booting into stuff like MBR, real mode, etc in 2017. This doesn't happen on UEFI computers, unless you use the CSM.