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Although the subject matter is captivating and the article well written, the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth. It really does seem to be the case tha

by Bakary 9y ago

Although the subject matter is captivating and the article well written, the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth. It really does seem to be the case that charismatic individuals can, as a rule of thumb, get away with almost anything at all. I do understand the need to escape the "tedium of life" as one of the witches put it but it's still highly irritating to see otherwise normal people be consumed by conmen. I like to think it wouldn't happen to me, but seeing how skilled this guy was I'm starting to believe I would fall prey to someone like him just as easily as those women did.

chippy 9y ago
Whilst there are of course vulnerable individuals who fall prey, are captivated and consumed by conmen, I think that's making things too simply - it's both more truthful, more difficult and more worrying to say that these individuals have their own choice, and freedom to make it. It's more comforting to think that people are kidnapped, brainwashed and forced to do and think things by evil men - it takes all responsibility from the equation - that people are in this case "seekers", that they choose to live in this way, that there are benefits in living that life. Cults can be good! It's not helpful to believe this if you want to leave a cult of course! And its not helpful to believe that truth in the future when you look back at your time - better to think it was all wrong. To admit to yourself that you played a part in your membership and had enjoyed some or most is much harder than believing you had no choice. If I was in that situation, I would certainly choose to believe I was 100% a victim - it's healthier, better and logical for me to do so. So actually thinking that these people are vulnerable, weak, had no choice, were made prey of, were captitvated, hypnotised and consumed by an evil conman is actually a psychologically easier and often better thing to do! (if not really factual or truthful)
- Bakary 9y ago
  It's not so much that I deny that these people had agency but rather that I think that the way the brain works makes charisma the single most important trait in terms of determining what a person can achieve. I am more annoyed by the victims and their poor choices than the conman himself, to be honest. Once charismatic people discover what they can do, the temptation to use those powers is simply too great to resist from their perspective. As I said, I believe that I am vulnerable to these types myself, but I do not regard myself as having no choice. Instead, I am simply aware that some aspects of social interaction mean that charismatic people can exert a stronger influence on my choices than many other factors, and that I'm capable to make choices that seem logical under the influence of strong emotion but seem utterly stupid in retrospect. Once again, not denying agency but being cognizant of its limitations.
- cousin_it 9y ago
  Wanting something doesn't imply benefitting from it, though. The world is full of things that try to exploit your wanting mechanism without providing benefit (or even enjoyment that matches the wanting). You can say that an individual's job is only wanting things that will be good for them, but that's an awfully hard job. Society should help with that, e.g. by teaching children to distrust dreams that promise too much.
api 9y ago
> It really does seem to be the case that charismatic individuals can, as a rule of thumb, get away with almost anything at all. I've come to believe that the ordinary state of human consciousness is actually a form of mild anhedonic depression. It makes sense for a species that evolved in a world that rarely changed when most activity consisted of slow and painstaking work like farming, making simple things, and hunting. Up until the past few hundred years nothing changed within the time span of a single human life for most people. The ability to zone out for long periods and tolerate monotony would be an advantage. Being too "wound up" would be maladaptive as it would lead to needlessly reckless behavior and destruction of community. But we don't live in that world anymore. This is why stimulants of both dopaminergic (caffeine, amphetamine, modafinil) and serotonergic (antidepressants) forms are so popular. These drugs actually normalize our consciousness to the contemporary world. If homo sapiens evolved in the modern world we'd all be wired as if we were on 5-10mg of amphetamine and 10mg of escitalopram all the time. Here's the thing though. Humans are hyper-social to the point that the mental state of others affects our own mental state. This is partly why centers like Silicon Valley and New York are so powerful-- being around a lot of like-minded productive people actually makes us more productive. When someone comes along who is just naturally a little tweaked we say they have charisma, and we absorb a bit of that charisma vicariously. We get a nice tweaky brain chemical hit by being around them. This makes them addictive in a sense, and as with many drugs people will toss their rational mind out the window to get more.
- Bakary 9y ago
  Wow. I've never thought of it that way before

by Bakary 9y ago

chippy 9y ago

Whilst there are of course vulnerable individuals who fall prey, are captivated and consumed by conmen, I think that's making things too simply - it's both more truthful, more difficult and more worrying to say that these individuals have their own choice, and freedom to make it. It's more comforting to think that people are kidnapped, brainwashed and forced to do and think things by evil men - it takes all responsibility from the equation - that people are in this case "seekers", that they choose to live in this way, that there are benefits in living that life. Cults can be good! It's not helpful to believe this if you want to leave a cult of course! And its not helpful to believe that truth in the future when you look back at your time - better to think it was all wrong. To admit to yourself that you played a part in your membership and had enjoyed some or most is much harder than believing you had no choice. If I was in that situation, I would certainly choose to believe I was 100% a victim - it's healthier, better and logical for me to do so. So actually thinking that these people are vulnerable, weak, had no choice, were made prey of, were captitvated, hypnotised and consumed by an evil conman is actually a psychologically easier and often better thing to do! (if not really factual or truthful)

Bakary 9y ago
It's not so much that I deny that these people had agency but rather that I think that the way the brain works makes charisma the single most important trait in terms of determining what a person can achieve. I am more annoyed by the victims and their poor choices than the conman himself, to be honest. Once charismatic people discover what they can do, the temptation to use those powers is simply too great to resist from their perspective. As I said, I believe that I am vulnerable to these types myself, but I do not regard myself as having no choice. Instead, I am simply aware that some aspects of social interaction mean that charismatic people can exert a stronger influence on my choices than many other factors, and that I'm capable to make choices that seem logical under the influence of strong emotion but seem utterly stupid in retrospect. Once again, not denying agency but being cognizant of its limitations.
cousin_it 9y ago
Wanting something doesn't imply benefitting from it, though. The world is full of things that try to exploit your wanting mechanism without providing benefit (or even enjoyment that matches the wanting). You can say that an individual's job is only wanting things that will be good for them, but that's an awfully hard job. Society should help with that, e.g. by teaching children to distrust dreams that promise too much.

api 9y ago

> It really does seem to be the case that charismatic individuals can, as a rule of thumb, get away with almost anything at all. I've come to believe that the ordinary state of human consciousness is actually a form of mild anhedonic depression. It makes sense for a species that evolved in a world that rarely changed when most activity consisted of slow and painstaking work like farming, making simple things, and hunting. Up until the past few hundred years nothing changed within the time span of a single human life for most people. The ability to zone out for long periods and tolerate monotony would be an advantage. Being too "wound up" would be maladaptive as it would lead to needlessly reckless behavior and destruction of community. But we don't live in that world anymore. This is why stimulants of both dopaminergic (caffeine, amphetamine, modafinil) and serotonergic (antidepressants) forms are so popular. These drugs actually normalize our consciousness to the contemporary world. If homo sapiens evolved in the modern world we'd all be wired as if we were on 5-10mg of amphetamine and 10mg of escitalopram all the time. Here's the thing though. Humans are hyper-social to the point that the mental state of others affects our own mental state. This is partly why centers like Silicon Valley and New York are so powerful-- being around a lot of like-minded productive people actually makes us more productive. When someone comes along who is just naturally a little tweaked we say they have charisma, and we absorb a bit of that charisma vicariously. We get a nice tweaky brain chemical hit by being around them. This makes them addictive in a sense, and as with many drugs people will toss their rational mind out the window to get more.

Bakary 9y ago
Wow. I've never thought of it that way before