6 ms·

I doubt we'll be seeing desktop ARM systems any time soon, especially high end workstation or enthusiast systems. The problem is that the ARM64 architecture is

I doubt we'll be seeing desktop ARM systems any time soon, especially high end workstation or enthusiast systems. The problem is that the ARM64 architecture is completely different from x86-64, which almost every desktop application is compiled for exclusively. Remember when Microsoft launched an ARM Surface? It had a special version of Windows, and almost nothing would run on it, as very few applications are compiled for Windows on ARM.

adrianN 9y ago
My Raspberry Pi does almost all things that I would like to do with a computer. I could definitely imagine buying an ARM based computer.
- jrimbault 9y ago
  Because we have the sources for most of the software, it can be recompiled. Not true for Windows, especially old closed source software.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Apple switched processors several times. They provided an emulator for old programs, so they could run without the user noticing anything (except worse performance). You could probably do the same for ARM.
    - swsieber 9y ago
      And Windows has done the same thing for ARM. I think it was posted here in the last month or so. Edit: found it, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406
    - intoverflow2 9y ago
      It's worth understanding the Mac software ecosystem is mostly made up of people who love the platform and OS. Windows just isn't the same, lots of devs making software the same way the made it 15+ years ago and not wanting or even caring enough to change no matter what the benefits.
      - hishnash 9y ago
        also, apple do a really good job on compilers etc to make it easier to write code and systems that jump between systems quite well. Lots of people dev on windows without using the latest tools from Microsoft this is just not how it works with apple.
  - sqeaky 9y ago
    Doesn't that make this an argument against closed source, not against ARM? I agree the issues are related, but if us people in open source can switch in an afternoon and you people in closed sourced land can't ever switch it highlights a problem.
    - hatsunearu 9y ago
      If the windows ecosystem magically switched to the OSS repo model then ARM would become instantly viable to the maximum extent, no doubt about it.
T-A 9y ago
https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171
thedjinn 9y ago
I wonder if it's possible to use some kind of translator, like Apple did with Rosetta to run PowerPC code on x86. This is of course not interesting for the Surface but it might be a nice solution for a desktop transition to ARM.
- zanny 9y ago
  Its not really the actual limit. Nobody is writing architecture-specific code anymore. Being able to binary translate x86 won't change the fact that the program you are trying to run is trying to invoke a thousand libraries for a proprietary OS that will never open up or otherwise become portable, that is also compiled against a system call interface specific to only that proprietary non-standard OS. If Windows on ARM allowed generic binaries, almost everything in the Windows ecosystem would be on ARM. For Windows.
- latch 9y ago
  Like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe ?
DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
> It had a special version of Windows, and almost nothing would run on it, as very few applications are compiled for Windows on ARM. That wasn't the reason. It was because Windows RT was artificially locked-down to only allow sandboxed "apps" from the Windows App Store to run. There's not much of a use-case for only glorified web-service clients on a machine with a desktop UI regardless of the ISA they're compiled for. Had MS allowed arbitrary ARM code to run on the Surface RT, free of sandbox restrictions, I think the platform would still be alive today - probably as a successor to Windows CE for kiosk applications. (Though there is now finally a non-locked-down version of Windows 10 for ARM... so let's see...)
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
  Yeah, it required the Windows Store, and additionally at that time it could only have WinRT (unrelated to Windows RT; basically the old name for UWP) apps. These days you can put Win32 apps on the store. If Microsoft allowed Win32 ARM apps on the store, maybe Windows RT would have succeeded. Maybe. Software publishers probably wouldn't have wanted to lose that control.
- justavoice 9y ago
  And now we have 10S that... requires the app store. Will it meet the same fate? One can only hope.
wlesieutre 9y ago
Funny you say that, MS just announced they're taking another stab at it. https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/31/15711334/microsoft-windows-10-arm-qualcomm-pcs-asus-hp-lenovo https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/31/15711334/microsoft-window...
- BatFastard 9y ago
  Interesting, was watching the video on the new MS Surface Laptop at the end, I saw 4 gig of Ram and shut down the page...
  - zyx321 9y ago
    It's designed to run UWP / Store apps exclusively. In the default configuration, it will not run win32 programs at all.
    - mikhailt 9y ago
      Just to be clear, Win32 apps submitted to the Windows Store will run.
redial 9y ago
Isn't the main problem with ARM the lack of a standard hardware architecture that supports of-the-shelf pc components? Every motherboard has it's own size, it's own closed bios supporting only some kinds of memory (if at all, due to on die memory of most soc), which is fine for embedded use but leaves a lot to be desired if you try to use it as a "desktop pc" replacement.
- adrianN 9y ago
  PCs were very dissimilar until the IBM PC ate everybody else. Maybe something similar can happen to ARM.
  - balls187 9y ago
    > Maybe something similar can happen to ARM. During the era where desktop PCs are becoming anachronistic?
    - adrianN 9y ago
      Last time I checked all the employees at boring companies still use desktop PCs (or IBM compatible laptops).
  - beagle3 9y ago
    PCs usually refers to IBM PC compatible systems. Which PCs are you referring to?
mtgx 9y ago
The new Windows 10 on ARM will run emulated x86 apps, so no changes needed from developers. Windows RT required UWP-only apps. https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 As for "never reaching the same performance" as desktop Intel/AMD chips, I would say that depends. It's not that they can't do it with ARM chips, is that nobody has bothered to do it until now, because there was no point with so few UWP apps. The market would be way too small. What would be the point in making a Core i7-level ARM chip just for the Surface RT? The risk would be too big. But now that Microsoft opened up the PC market to ARM -- truly -- ARM chip makers can begin to make some real desktop-class ARM chips. Chips that require 15, 30, 45, or even 90 watts of power. But I do think this will happen gradually over several years, because first they need to see how ARM chips work under Windows 10 this time around and how people accept them. Then if that goes well, they need to start designing those 15-90W ARM chips, and then start selling them. Someone like Qualcomm needs to be sure that if it does design a 90W ARM chip that's highly competitive with a desktop class Intel or AMD chip (at least in terms of performance/dollar), more than 10 million people will buy it.
koolba 9y ago
Is that the case for Linux OSes as well? I thought that ARM was a first class citizen for Debian based distros for many years.
timthorn 9y ago
Here's an off the shelf 32 core ARM desktop: https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/arm-desktops.html https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/arm-desktops.html
vidarh 9y ago
We had ARM on the desktop: The Acorn Archimedes [1] ;) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes
jokoon 9y ago
> as very few applications are compiled for Windows on ARM. Why is that? I mean what is preventing anyone to just compile those apps to arm64?
- ianlevesque 9y ago
  Well they also pushed the Windows Store hard, which hasn't exactly been a resounding success.
beagle3 9y ago
That's why an ARM64 Windows desktop is unlikely (unless microsofts x86 emulator is magical). But ARM64 chrome books or android books are practical; I have 5 year old ARM 32 chrome book and it is still useful for browsing and emailing.
- mikhailt 9y ago
  It's already happening, Microsoft's using its WOW64 subsystem to emulate Win32 calls on top of native Windows 10 for ARM. Source: https://channel9.msdn.com/events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/events/Build/2017/P4171
  - beagle3 9y ago
    When I wrote "magical" I meant "sufficiently performant". Which I will only believe when I see in action.
- marssaxman 9y ago
  Why restrict it to those limited OSes? Seems like an ARM64 laptop running Linux ought to work just as well as the AMD64 laptops running Linux I've been using for the last few years.
  - beagle3 9y ago
    I've been using Linux on my desktop (without windows even in a VM) since 2004 and I totally agree - however until Linux is considered a viable option by non-enthusiasts, it's not relevant to this discussion. (I agree it is already relevant and more useful than Windows for the vast majority - but they refuse to even try)
geiseric 9y ago
What made the RISC or ARM processor popular in the past was the ability to do graphic rendering and complex math. GPU's put a dent in that. Making a i386 CISC system with the addition of a GPU have parity with the old SG systems, but substantially cheaper.

adrianN 9y ago

My Raspberry Pi does almost all things that I would like to do with a computer. I could definitely imagine buying an ARM based computer.

jrimbault 9y ago
Because we have the sources for most of the software, it can be recompiled. Not true for Windows, especially old closed source software.
- adrianN 9y ago
  Apple switched processors several times. They provided an emulator for old programs, so they could run without the user noticing anything (except worse performance). You could probably do the same for ARM.
  - swsieber 9y ago
    And Windows has done the same thing for ARM. I think it was posted here in the last month or so. Edit: found it, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14318406
  - intoverflow2 9y ago
    It's worth understanding the Mac software ecosystem is mostly made up of people who love the platform and OS. Windows just isn't the same, lots of devs making software the same way the made it 15+ years ago and not wanting or even caring enough to change no matter what the benefits.
    - hishnash 9y ago
      also, apple do a really good job on compilers etc to make it easier to write code and systems that jump between systems quite well. Lots of people dev on windows without using the latest tools from Microsoft this is just not how it works with apple.
- sqeaky 9y ago
  Doesn't that make this an argument against closed source, not against ARM? I agree the issues are related, but if us people in open source can switch in an afternoon and you people in closed sourced land can't ever switch it highlights a problem.
  - hatsunearu 9y ago
    If the windows ecosystem magically switched to the OSS repo model then ARM would become instantly viable to the maximum extent, no doubt about it.

T-A 9y ago

https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171

thedjinn 9y ago

I wonder if it's possible to use some kind of translator, like Apple did with Rosetta to run PowerPC code on x86. This is of course not interesting for the Surface but it might be a nice solution for a desktop transition to ARM.

zanny 9y ago
Its not really the actual limit. Nobody is writing architecture-specific code anymore. Being able to binary translate x86 won't change the fact that the program you are trying to run is trying to invoke a thousand libraries for a proprietary OS that will never open up or otherwise become portable, that is also compiled against a system call interface specific to only that proprietary non-standard OS. If Windows on ARM allowed generic binaries, almost everything in the Windows ecosystem would be on ARM. For Windows.
latch 9y ago
Like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe ?

DaiPlusPlus 9y ago

> It had a special version of Windows, and almost nothing would run on it, as very few applications are compiled for Windows on ARM. That wasn't the reason. It was because Windows RT was artificially locked-down to only allow sandboxed "apps" from the Windows App Store to run. There's not much of a use-case for only glorified web-service clients on a machine with a desktop UI regardless of the ISA they're compiled for. Had MS allowed arbitrary ARM code to run on the Surface RT, free of sandbox restrictions, I think the platform would still be alive today - probably as a successor to Windows CE for kiosk applications. (Though there is now finally a non-locked-down version of Windows 10 for ARM... so let's see...)

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
Yeah, it required the Windows Store, and additionally at that time it could only have WinRT (unrelated to Windows RT; basically the old name for UWP) apps. These days you can put Win32 apps on the store. If Microsoft allowed Win32 ARM apps on the store, maybe Windows RT would have succeeded. Maybe. Software publishers probably wouldn't have wanted to lose that control.
justavoice 9y ago
And now we have 10S that... requires the app store. Will it meet the same fate? One can only hope.

wlesieutre 9y ago

Funny you say that, MS just announced they're taking another stab at it. https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/31/15711334/microsoft-windows-10-arm-qualcomm-pcs-asus-hp-lenovo https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/31/15711334/microsoft-window...

BatFastard 9y ago
Interesting, was watching the video on the new MS Surface Laptop at the end, I saw 4 gig of Ram and shut down the page...
- zyx321 9y ago
  It's designed to run UWP / Store apps exclusively. In the default configuration, it will not run win32 programs at all.
  - mikhailt 9y ago
    Just to be clear, Win32 apps submitted to the Windows Store will run.

redial 9y ago

Isn't the main problem with ARM the lack of a standard hardware architecture that supports of-the-shelf pc components? Every motherboard has it's own size, it's own closed bios supporting only some kinds of memory (if at all, due to on die memory of most soc), which is fine for embedded use but leaves a lot to be desired if you try to use it as a "desktop pc" replacement.

adrianN 9y ago
PCs were very dissimilar until the IBM PC ate everybody else. Maybe something similar can happen to ARM.
- balls187 9y ago
  > Maybe something similar can happen to ARM. During the era where desktop PCs are becoming anachronistic?
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Last time I checked all the employees at boring companies still use desktop PCs (or IBM compatible laptops).
- beagle3 9y ago
  PCs usually refers to IBM PC compatible systems. Which PCs are you referring to?

mtgx 9y ago

The new Windows 10 on ARM will run emulated x86 apps, so no changes needed from developers. Windows RT required UWP-only apps. https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2017/P4171 As for "never reaching the same performance" as desktop Intel/AMD chips, I would say that depends. It's not that they can't do it with ARM chips, is that nobody has bothered to do it until now, because there was no point with so few UWP apps. The market would be way too small. What would be the point in making a Core i7-level ARM chip just for the Surface RT? The risk would be too big. But now that Microsoft opened up the PC market to ARM -- truly -- ARM chip makers can begin to make some real desktop-class ARM chips. Chips that require 15, 30, 45, or even 90 watts of power. But I do think this will happen gradually over several years, because first they need to see how ARM chips work under Windows 10 this time around and how people accept them. Then if that goes well, they need to start designing those 15-90W ARM chips, and then start selling them. Someone like Qualcomm needs to be sure that if it does design a 90W ARM chip that's highly competitive with a desktop class Intel or AMD chip (at least in terms of performance/dollar), more than 10 million people will buy it.

koolba 9y ago

Is that the case for Linux OSes as well? I thought that ARM was a first class citizen for Debian based distros for many years.

timthorn 9y ago

Here's an off the shelf 32 core ARM desktop: https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/arm-desktops.html https://www.avantek.co.uk/store/arm-desktops.html

vidarh 9y ago

We had ARM on the desktop: The Acorn Archimedes [1] ;) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acorn_Archimedes

jokoon 9y ago

> as very few applications are compiled for Windows on ARM. Why is that? I mean what is preventing anyone to just compile those apps to arm64?

ianlevesque 9y ago
Well they also pushed the Windows Store hard, which hasn't exactly been a resounding success.

beagle3 9y ago

That's why an ARM64 Windows desktop is unlikely (unless microsofts x86 emulator is magical). But ARM64 chrome books or android books are practical; I have 5 year old ARM 32 chrome book and it is still useful for browsing and emailing.

mikhailt 9y ago
It's already happening, Microsoft's using its WOW64 subsystem to emulate Win32 calls on top of native Windows 10 for ARM. Source: https://channel9.msdn.com/events/Build/2017/P4171 https://channel9.msdn.com/events/Build/2017/P4171
- beagle3 9y ago
  When I wrote "magical" I meant "sufficiently performant". Which I will only believe when I see in action.
marssaxman 9y ago
Why restrict it to those limited OSes? Seems like an ARM64 laptop running Linux ought to work just as well as the AMD64 laptops running Linux I've been using for the last few years.
- beagle3 9y ago
  I've been using Linux on my desktop (without windows even in a VM) since 2004 and I totally agree - however until Linux is considered a viable option by non-enthusiasts, it's not relevant to this discussion. (I agree it is already relevant and more useful than Windows for the vast majority - but they refuse to even try)

geiseric 9y ago

What made the RISC or ARM processor popular in the past was the ability to do graphic rendering and complex math. GPU's put a dent in that. Making a i386 CISC system with the addition of a GPU have parity with the old SG systems, but substantially cheaper.