4 ms·

At what age does ageism start to affect opportunities for software engineers?

30 points by fauria 9y ago

api 9y ago
It depends, and it depends on where you are. I've heard it's bad in the Valley but I haven't seen it elsewhere so much. The biggest advice I give to programmers who are getting older and want to stay programmers is: don't let you skills atrophy, and always keep learning new technologies. If you do those things you're probably fine. Older programmers can sometimes command a premium since if they're good they'll have a tremendous amount of very esoteric knowledge and a lot of experience.
elliotec 9y ago
I live in Salt Lake City, and I really don't see it much here. I am younger than the average age by quite a bit (so take this with heaps of salt), but at my company we have programmers in their 60's and 70's. Maybe some of the more wannabe SV type startups with 100x more sales bros than devs might be more ageist, but generally in the enterprise or consulting world (and even education) where I've spent my time, it seems most older developers are respected for their experience. I do get nervous about this too though, because of what I hear elsewhere in the industry. It also seems tough to not cap out at a ceiling very early on in the career if you're not climbing some ladder.
tutufan 9y ago
At 53, it hasn't had much effect on me as far as I can tell. The first time I noticed was at about 45, where a SV startup that seemed extremely enthusiastic nope'd after seeing me on Skype. IMO, there's just not much to be done about it. My skills are about as good as they ever were, and my long experience can be extremely useful. Some employers will hire that and some won't.
- hn_user2 9y ago
  I always say that the places that nope out after seeing my age, are definitely places where I wouldn't want to work when I look at work/life balance, etc. I think the truth is, it really isn't a good fit. These places want young people because they want that kid to stay all night--maybe with a break with the gang for some beers before going back to work. No thanks.
  - TheCowboy 9y ago
    I just don't think this is a convincing argument from a philosophical standpoint, but it is a common argument. If we apply it in other situations, "a young black man wouldn't want to work for a company that doesn't want to hire young black men any way". It is true on the surface. Nobody wants to be where they aren't wanted for non-negative traits they cannot change. When a problem is rare enough, and people affected have other options, it is a reasonable pragmatic stance. Let the isolated business owner, who treats it as a personal social club, be less successful. It is not good for society if these injustices proliferate. Economic imbalances result favoring arbitrary traits that don't increase the wealth of society. Innovation is inhibited, labor market inefficiencies result. People can't change careers as easily and adapt to technological progress.
    - tutufan 9y ago
      At a societal level, I'd prefer that companies didn't act irrationally. (I don't believe in justice per se.) But at an individual level, you have to play the cards you are dealt. There is a huge amount of noise in the system, but play them as well as you can.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    They also want to pay me like I've got 5 years of experience. I've got 30, and I'd like to be paid accordingly. If you don't see the value in those added years of experience, then I don't want to work for you. Note that this is not the same as ageism. They'd be happy to hire me, even with my age, if they could pay me a bunch less.
    - bradknowles 9y ago
      I haven't seen this. The employers I've talked to seem to assume you wouldn't be happy if you were paid less and therefore they nope out pretty quickly.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
angryasian 9y ago
Sadly if you aren't on a management tract by 40 you're opportunities will be come less and less. Theres only so many Sr Engineers or Architects a company needs. For some reason companies don't mind hiring a hand full of managers for every one Sr engineer. From startups to big companies I've seen this to be true. Just throw a bunch of younger engineers at problems and solutions that are designed by one or two sr engineers.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  Sometimes I feel like software is an army of the blind leading the blind. Senior Engineers with 3 years of experience, that enter management the moment they can score 5 years of experience, combined with an attitude that Senior Engineers/Architects are too expensive, mean that a bunch of slightly experienced engineers lead teams of absolutely inexperienced engineers. And these green teams lead death marches to creating Javascript apps to get the next cloud-mobile-web-social _disruption_. No wonder nobody wants to go into computer science.
pg_is_a_butt 9y ago
at what age did defeatism and victimhood start to control your psyche? you're all idiots.
colanderman 9y ago
18. Until you're in your 30s, it can be hard to get a salary that matches your abilities, and peers/management that respects your talent. Sometimes it's hard for them to accept that you're both the youngest dev on the team and the only one who has any goddamned clue how TCP works. For me this thankfully is in hindsight. I am now lucky to (a) be employed at a company which cultivates a culture of respect for technical ability which spans an age range of 40+ years, and (b) be 31 years old.
natch 9y ago
Age 9 or so when they start being able to code. For a while, many people think they are too young to be employed. Then after you are 35 or so, many younger people think you are "old." From what I've seen, and yes saying this sounds ageist, ageism is mostly a problem created by young people.

30 points by fauria 9y ago

api 9y ago

It depends, and it depends on where you are. I've heard it's bad in the Valley but I haven't seen it elsewhere so much. The biggest advice I give to programmers who are getting older and want to stay programmers is: don't let you skills atrophy, and always keep learning new technologies. If you do those things you're probably fine. Older programmers can sometimes command a premium since if they're good they'll have a tremendous amount of very esoteric knowledge and a lot of experience.

elliotec 9y ago

I live in Salt Lake City, and I really don't see it much here. I am younger than the average age by quite a bit (so take this with heaps of salt), but at my company we have programmers in their 60's and 70's. Maybe some of the more wannabe SV type startups with 100x more sales bros than devs might be more ageist, but generally in the enterprise or consulting world (and even education) where I've spent my time, it seems most older developers are respected for their experience. I do get nervous about this too though, because of what I hear elsewhere in the industry. It also seems tough to not cap out at a ceiling very early on in the career if you're not climbing some ladder.

tutufan 9y ago

At 53, it hasn't had much effect on me as far as I can tell. The first time I noticed was at about 45, where a SV startup that seemed extremely enthusiastic nope'd after seeing me on Skype. IMO, there's just not much to be done about it. My skills are about as good as they ever were, and my long experience can be extremely useful. Some employers will hire that and some won't.

hn_user2 9y ago
I always say that the places that nope out after seeing my age, are definitely places where I wouldn't want to work when I look at work/life balance, etc. I think the truth is, it really isn't a good fit. These places want young people because they want that kid to stay all night--maybe with a break with the gang for some beers before going back to work. No thanks.
- TheCowboy 9y ago
  I just don't think this is a convincing argument from a philosophical standpoint, but it is a common argument. If we apply it in other situations, "a young black man wouldn't want to work for a company that doesn't want to hire young black men any way". It is true on the surface. Nobody wants to be where they aren't wanted for non-negative traits they cannot change. When a problem is rare enough, and people affected have other options, it is a reasonable pragmatic stance. Let the isolated business owner, who treats it as a personal social club, be less successful. It is not good for society if these injustices proliferate. Economic imbalances result favoring arbitrary traits that don't increase the wealth of society. Innovation is inhibited, labor market inefficiencies result. People can't change careers as easily and adapt to technological progress.
  - tutufan 9y ago
    At a societal level, I'd prefer that companies didn't act irrationally. (I don't believe in justice per se.) But at an individual level, you have to play the cards you are dealt. There is a huge amount of noise in the system, but play them as well as you can.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  They also want to pay me like I've got 5 years of experience. I've got 30, and I'd like to be paid accordingly. If you don't see the value in those added years of experience, then I don't want to work for you. Note that this is not the same as ageism. They'd be happy to hire me, even with my age, if they could pay me a bunch less.
  - bradknowles 9y ago
    I haven't seen this. The employers I've talked to seem to assume you wouldn't be happy if you were paid less and therefore they nope out pretty quickly.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago

angryasian 9y ago

Sadly if you aren't on a management tract by 40 you're opportunities will be come less and less. Theres only so many Sr Engineers or Architects a company needs. For some reason companies don't mind hiring a hand full of managers for every one Sr engineer. From startups to big companies I've seen this to be true. Just throw a bunch of younger engineers at problems and solutions that are designed by one or two sr engineers.

Karrot_Kream 9y ago
Sometimes I feel like software is an army of the blind leading the blind. Senior Engineers with 3 years of experience, that enter management the moment they can score 5 years of experience, combined with an attitude that Senior Engineers/Architects are too expensive, mean that a bunch of slightly experienced engineers lead teams of absolutely inexperienced engineers. And these green teams lead death marches to creating Javascript apps to get the next cloud-mobile-web-social _disruption_. No wonder nobody wants to go into computer science.

pg_is_a_butt 9y ago

at what age did defeatism and victimhood start to control your psyche? you're all idiots.

colanderman 9y ago

18. Until you're in your 30s, it can be hard to get a salary that matches your abilities, and peers/management that respects your talent. Sometimes it's hard for them to accept that you're both the youngest dev on the team and the only one who has any goddamned clue how TCP works. For me this thankfully is in hindsight. I am now lucky to (a) be employed at a company which cultivates a culture of respect for technical ability which spans an age range of 40+ years, and (b) be 31 years old.

natch 9y ago

Age 9 or so when they start being able to code. For a while, many people think they are too young to be employed. Then after you are 35 or so, many younger people think you are "old." From what I've seen, and yes saying this sounds ageist, ageism is mostly a problem created by young people.