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Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree". It also further entrenche

Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree". It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. Given the success of some short coding bootcamps, it isn't inconceivable that novices could be brought up to speed within the first semester. We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school; it's a bonus if they have been in the debate society or have taken a personal interest in the subject, but it's not necessary. I don't see why CS should be a special case, aside from a misplaced attitude of exclusionary elitism.

brandonmenc 9y ago
> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) > We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school No, but we expect math majors to have done some math before they get to college. I don't disagree with you that most people can be brought up to speed in less than a year, but it's also not unreasonable to expect first year CS students to have had some programming experience. Computers don't cost thousands of dollars anymore.
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  > If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) Right. This type of democratization is EXACTLY what allowed me to climb the social ladder out of the rural midwest into a Top 15 university and then Silicon Valley. As a teenager, all I needed to teach myself coding and advanced math was free time and an Internet connection.
- Spikeyduy 9y ago
  Honestly I think the only prerequisite for a CS major is to have interest in it. I never had any programming classes in high school and I switch my major 3 times until landing on CS. I had never programmed before in my life, but it was interesting to me and I found out I had an affinity towards it. I'm just saying this statement that you need to have some background to it is not necessary.
- watwut 9y ago
  Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not bought those journals or had my teacher not shown me competitions, I would not study cs or had much harder time. If you are a boy, video game console is something that is bought for you often times whether you really want it or not. Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. And even if you know it exists, you need computer to upload code to it and then you could have just use that computer to code. I know that it is easy to code when you know where to look, but the biggest hurdle is that many kids dont know where to look. Instead, they are told there is something magical and hard about it. I remember being told that it is hard or that I cant compete because I am (presumably) just learning and other kids "already know a lot". It was bs, but that is where it is for many kids. Seriously, I knew straight A students who were more hardworking then me and had good grades in math (meaning no dummies memorizing stuff) were under impression I have some special brain because I can program. All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense.
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    > Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results? Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!" Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.
- erroneousfunk 9y ago
  A video game console has a known and proven entertainment value. The whole family can use it. It's a reason for people to come over to your house. It's a status symbol. Beyond that, I know a lot of poor kids who don't have video game consoles, and there literally isn't $50 in the budget for something that may or may not produce any value (not to mention the monitor, the peripherals, and taking up vast amounts of time on the family computer -- if one exists -- to figure out how to use it). I have extended family living in rural Utah who don't even have a computer -- they use their phones for the Internet. You can debate back and forth about the cost of a phone vs. the cost of a cheap Desktop, but people need phones to function in society, for better or worse. Try figuring out what to do with a bottom tier smartphone, a limited data plan, and a Rasberry Pi that just arrived in the mail. I volunteer at the Boston Museum of Science, working in the Tech Studio/engineering department, often showing off the latest "engineering toys" -- Little Bits, Rasberry pi, Scratch on an iPad that controls a Lego robot... Rich kid parents ask "Oh, where can I get this?" It's not a big deal for them to drop a couple hundred bucks on flavor-of-the-week programming toys. Poor kid parents are often interested and enjoy playing around with it at the Museum, but never ask about getting one themselves. It doesn't even occur to them. Beyond THAT, there are a lot of majors that don't cost a lot of money. You can use the argument "X doesn't cost much to learn -- why haven't you done X before on your own time?" to apply to anyone.
  - mysterydip 9y ago
    Sounds like a great opportunity for local libraries to become more relevant (and/or for a nonprofit org to supply them). I know many local libraries supply at least a few computers for internet browsing or whatnot. Why not a pi or two, or pocketCHIPs to loan out?
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    You can always point to someone who can't afford it. That doesn't make me wrong. There are now computers that cost as little as taking the family out to dinner at McDonalds. Probably a hundred million more people (yes, however, not every single person, ok) have the means to learn programming compared to when I was a kid. Acknowledge that, because it's amazing.
xor1 9y ago
>Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree" What makes you bring up gender over race or class ? There are more middle-class Asian and White women in the field than lower-income African-American and Hispanic men.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  The following sentence was about household income. I'm not entirely sure that race is a meaningful factor after correcting for socioeconomic status. Gender is demonstrably the biggest skew in CS majors.
erikbye 9y ago
> We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school; it's a bonus if they have been in the debate society or have taken a personal interest in the subject, but it's not necessary. I don't see why CS should be a special case... Agreed, and when it comes to CS, programming is the easiest part. People who fail to see this are probably the ones who only know programming and no CS.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  If you've applied for a CS degree and not done any programming though why (outside of financial incentive) would a Uni want you, surely it shows you've no interest in the field - that has to correlate strongly with failure. From nothing to doing bubble-sorts with something like python shouldn't be more than a couple of weekends for someone of the caliber to study CS at Uni. Say you apply to study marine biology but have never been to the seaside then sure, you might do fine, but really I'd be wondering why you weren't taking a gap year and doing some self-directed study at a beach (hey, that sounds fun!).
  - hx87 9y ago
    Maybe because in the USA, you don't "apply for a degree" at the undergraduate level? You apply to be at the university full stop, or at most an honors program.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      So, you do modules or somesuch; presumably they have pre-requisites that work in largely the same way? Like for non high-school subjects "read chapters 1-4 of 'intro to $subject' and have a grade C or above on $exam"? How do you manage expectations for courses/modules/whatever from both sides (teacher:student) without such things.
      - hx87 9y ago
        You simply declare a major/concentration and register for classes in the appropriate departments. If you get acceptable grades in those classes you are allowed to continue.
lostboys67 9y ago
You do in countries that specialise earlier you wont get into a STEM course at a UK Uni without the relevant GCSE / A Levels. In the UK you start to specialise at 13/14 I and I bet having a GCSE and A level in Law would help for wanabe lawyers
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
>Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree". Somewhat related to your point, letting novice programmers get CS degrees doesn't fix the problem because there is still a performance gap which results in a hiring gap. If there is problem with demographics having unequal experiences, while colleges can be tweaked to keep the inequality from growing, it is far better to fix it where it comes from. It's far simpler to say than do, but our society needs to find why the gender skew in high school programmers happens and stop it.

brandonmenc 9y ago

> It also further entrenches the advantages of people who come from affluent backgrounds. If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) > We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school No, but we expect math majors to have done some math before they get to college. I don't disagree with you that most people can be brought up to speed in less than a year, but it's also not unreasonable to expect first year CS students to have had some programming experience. Computers don't cost thousands of dollars anymore.

Hydraulix989 9y ago
> If you can afford a video game console, you can afford a raspberry pi (or equivalent.) Right. This type of democratization is EXACTLY what allowed me to climb the social ladder out of the rural midwest into a Top 15 university and then Silicon Valley. As a teenager, all I needed to teach myself coding and advanced math was free time and an Internet connection.
Spikeyduy 9y ago
Honestly I think the only prerequisite for a CS major is to have interest in it. I never had any programming classes in high school and I switch my major 3 times until landing on CS. I had never programmed before in my life, but it was interesting to me and I found out I had an affinity towards it. I'm just saying this statement that you need to have some background to it is not necessary.
watwut 9y ago
Math majors are expected to know high school math. You can literally know exactly that and succeed. If you wish to get ahead of competition, you know exactly what to do and exactly what is measured. CS does not have such clarity of expectations. I knew basics, because of journals my father bought. Since I knew basics, the teacher shown me some competitions - from then on I just went with the flow. Had my father not bought those journals or had my teacher not shown me competitions, I would not study cs or had much harder time. If you are a boy, video game console is something that is bought for you often times whether you really want it or not. Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. And even if you know it exists, you need computer to upload code to it and then you could have just use that computer to code. I know that it is easy to code when you know where to look, but the biggest hurdle is that many kids dont know where to look. Instead, they are told there is something magical and hard about it. I remember being told that it is hard or that I cant compete because I am (presumably) just learning and other kids "already know a lot". It was bs, but that is where it is for many kids. Seriously, I knew straight A students who were more hardworking then me and had good grades in math (meaning no dummies memorizing stuff) were under impression I have some special brain because I can program. All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > Raspberry pi is likely not and you don't know it exists. If a kid can't type "how do computers work" in google, they probably won't become a programmer. Are we really wringing our hands over that? > All the myths around cs tend reinforce such nonsense. There's another bit of nonsense around CS that a lot of people here believe - that there are all these secretly good programmers out there who just don't know they're programmers because no one ever told them how to start, and that they might not even know what programming is because it's so difficult to get started. I find it nearly impossible to believe that there are all these smart people out there, surrounded by technology, with hacking and computers in every TV show, with the President telling them to "learn how to code", Bill Gates' name dropped by rappers, Google in everyones' pocket - and no one is typing "how does my smartphone/videogame/internet work" and reading the results? Like, who is still walking around like, "I got good grades in school and knew people could become doctors, but I didn't know people could make computers go! Why didn't anyone tell me?!" Are there other problems keeping people from breaking into the industry? Absolutely. Is "not knowing where to look" one of them? There's no way that it can be, not anymore.
erroneousfunk 9y ago
A video game console has a known and proven entertainment value. The whole family can use it. It's a reason for people to come over to your house. It's a status symbol. Beyond that, I know a lot of poor kids who don't have video game consoles, and there literally isn't $50 in the budget for something that may or may not produce any value (not to mention the monitor, the peripherals, and taking up vast amounts of time on the family computer -- if one exists -- to figure out how to use it). I have extended family living in rural Utah who don't even have a computer -- they use their phones for the Internet. You can debate back and forth about the cost of a phone vs. the cost of a cheap Desktop, but people need phones to function in society, for better or worse. Try figuring out what to do with a bottom tier smartphone, a limited data plan, and a Rasberry Pi that just arrived in the mail. I volunteer at the Boston Museum of Science, working in the Tech Studio/engineering department, often showing off the latest "engineering toys" -- Little Bits, Rasberry pi, Scratch on an iPad that controls a Lego robot... Rich kid parents ask "Oh, where can I get this?" It's not a big deal for them to drop a couple hundred bucks on flavor-of-the-week programming toys. Poor kid parents are often interested and enjoy playing around with it at the Museum, but never ask about getting one themselves. It doesn't even occur to them. Beyond THAT, there are a lot of majors that don't cost a lot of money. You can use the argument "X doesn't cost much to learn -- why haven't you done X before on your own time?" to apply to anyone.
- mysterydip 9y ago
  Sounds like a great opportunity for local libraries to become more relevant (and/or for a nonprofit org to supply them). I know many local libraries supply at least a few computers for internet browsing or whatnot. Why not a pi or two, or pocketCHIPs to loan out?
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  You can always point to someone who can't afford it. That doesn't make me wrong. There are now computers that cost as little as taking the family out to dinner at McDonalds. Probably a hundred million more people (yes, however, not every single person, ok) have the means to learn programming compared to when I was a kid. Acknowledge that, because it's amazing.

xor1 9y ago

>Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree" What makes you bring up gender over race or class ? There are more middle-class Asian and White women in the field than lower-income African-American and Hispanic men.

jdietrich 9y ago
The following sentence was about household income. I'm not entirely sure that race is a meaningful factor after correcting for socioeconomic status. Gender is demonstrably the biggest skew in CS majors.

erikbye 9y ago

> We don't expect law students to have been amateur lawyers in high school; it's a bonus if they have been in the debate society or have taken a personal interest in the subject, but it's not necessary. I don't see why CS should be a special case... Agreed, and when it comes to CS, programming is the easiest part. People who fail to see this are probably the ones who only know programming and no CS.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
If you've applied for a CS degree and not done any programming though why (outside of financial incentive) would a Uni want you, surely it shows you've no interest in the field - that has to correlate strongly with failure. From nothing to doing bubble-sorts with something like python shouldn't be more than a couple of weekends for someone of the caliber to study CS at Uni. Say you apply to study marine biology but have never been to the seaside then sure, you might do fine, but really I'd be wondering why you weren't taking a gap year and doing some self-directed study at a beach (hey, that sounds fun!).
- hx87 9y ago
  Maybe because in the USA, you don't "apply for a degree" at the undergraduate level? You apply to be at the university full stop, or at most an honors program.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    So, you do modules or somesuch; presumably they have pre-requisites that work in largely the same way? Like for non high-school subjects "read chapters 1-4 of 'intro to $subject' and have a grade C or above on $exam"? How do you manage expectations for courses/modules/whatever from both sides (teacher:student) without such things.
    - hx87 9y ago
      You simply declare a major/concentration and register for classes in the appropriate departments. If you get acceptable grades in those classes you are allowed to continue.

lostboys67 9y ago

You do in countries that specialise earlier you wont get into a STEM course at a UK Uni without the relevant GCSE / A Levels. In the UK you start to specialise at 13/14 I and I bet having a GCSE and A level in Law would help for wanabe lawyers

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

>Given the gender skew amongst high-school programmers, this is almost equivalent to saying "women should not be starting a CS degree". Somewhat related to your point, letting novice programmers get CS degrees doesn't fix the problem because there is still a performance gap which results in a hiring gap. If there is problem with demographics having unequal experiences, while colleges can be tweaked to keep the inequality from growing, it is far better to fix it where it comes from. It's far simpler to say than do, but our society needs to find why the gender skew in high school programmers happens and stop it.