4 ms·

That's not a very nice or accurate comment. Sure, SV salaries are higher but it's bound to be like that. Even without taking into account the SV monoculture and

by orf 9y ago

That's not a very nice or accurate comment. Sure, SV salaries are higher but it's bound to be like that. Even without taking into account the SV monoculture and exchange rate differences the cost of living in SV is far far far higher than a lot of Europe. Plus, you know, culture. Lots of culture.

dogma1138 9y ago
The CoL in Europe isn't much cheaper if you take in the large tech hubs. People also underestimate the value of being able to occomulate wealth which is nearly impossible in Europe. Salaries are much lower, taxation is much higher, bonuses are a joke and real equity is almost unheard of. Startups in Europe also tend to pay less than the established businesses which makes it much harder for them to attract good talent other than the original founders and fresh graduates. This also arguably extends to the tech sector at large if you are a developer you would be much better off working for a bank or any other financial institution, a consulting firm (esp big4) or in any other "non-tech" industry as the pay and the job security tends to be much better. This is pretty much the opposite of SV.
- orf 9y ago
  I agree about the pay and the hardship in attracting talent, to a degree. These are good points and a definite problem in the EU. However, excluding London (which is a bubble in itself), the CoL at all major tech hubs (and all cities) in Europe is much less than SV. Check out some of the comments here for anecdotal evidence, or just compare the cost of housing online, in Berlin for example (one of the most expensive cities). Taxes are higher, but perhaps it's an American thing to see taxes as the root of all evil. You get a lot for your taxes. Can you elaborate on why accumulating wealth is nearly impossible? Do you mean just saving money?
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    CoL shouldn't be completely detached from your income a better metric would be your relative purchasing power which is going to be higher in SV. After 10-15 years in SV it's not unheard off to accumulate wealth well north of 500K$, many people I know in the US I know have accumulated about 1M in total assets in the past 10 years or so. Compared that to Europe and it's a completely different picture.
- apexalpha 9y ago
  Yes, you are right about most things. I live in NL and just started as a software engineer this year. I make 45k. Probably a lot less than someone in the US with a similar position. The story has 2 sides though: you have to pay a lot of things we in Europe take for granted. And you should include those payments in you calculations. And most of the things like healthcare, depend on you having a job. I will never be without healthcare. Education costs are €2000 a year for uni, free for anything below. Unemployment benefits for up to 3 years after losing my job. State pension when I retire. More personal freedoms. 30 vacations days + 10 national holidays. Etc... Money isn't everything.
  - msmm 9y ago
    You pay for all of this in taxes and sometimes you pay for nothing. For example you can either wait couple of months to see a specialist or go privately. If you go privately then you essentially pay twice for healthcare. On top of that your taxes pay for all the red tape. You are being brainwashed by socialist media that it is for your good.
  - meddlepal 9y ago
    I would argue the American attitude is: Money is everything because with enough money you can have anything. It's just a different perspective on life.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      It's not about money it's about self reliance (responsibility) and agency. I'm not an American I live and work in Europe. Yes there are a lot of services but it's not a clear cut case for the upper middle class. "Working rich" is a concept that isn't possible in Europe outside of upper management or self employed. Yes we get healthcare albit everyone in their right mind who can afford it still gets private insurance. Yes we get cheap education but then we also don't get to decide where to send our children to school and private schools in countries that still have them cost a nice sum. Luxury is much harde to attain working in the Tech sector nice cars, houses taking a good vacation etc. Take the example above 45K Euros with a tax rate of about 40% and 20% VAT. Your purchasing power at that point is lower than someone in the US who makes about 35-38K a year and gets medical coverage from their employer.
msmm 9y ago
If you compare SV to some village in Romania then yes, it is cheap to live. But if you take salaries into account, you will be living from paycheck to paycheck, forget about saving anything. Prices in London are exorbitant for something habitable. Even if you choose to live in a shoebox, you hardly get any decent living from average £60k senior dev salary.

by orf 9y ago

dogma1138 9y ago

The CoL in Europe isn't much cheaper if you take in the large tech hubs. People also underestimate the value of being able to occomulate wealth which is nearly impossible in Europe. Salaries are much lower, taxation is much higher, bonuses are a joke and real equity is almost unheard of. Startups in Europe also tend to pay less than the established businesses which makes it much harder for them to attract good talent other than the original founders and fresh graduates. This also arguably extends to the tech sector at large if you are a developer you would be much better off working for a bank or any other financial institution, a consulting firm (esp big4) or in any other "non-tech" industry as the pay and the job security tends to be much better. This is pretty much the opposite of SV.

orf 9y ago
I agree about the pay and the hardship in attracting talent, to a degree. These are good points and a definite problem in the EU. However, excluding London (which is a bubble in itself), the CoL at all major tech hubs (and all cities) in Europe is much less than SV. Check out some of the comments here for anecdotal evidence, or just compare the cost of housing online, in Berlin for example (one of the most expensive cities). Taxes are higher, but perhaps it's an American thing to see taxes as the root of all evil. You get a lot for your taxes. Can you elaborate on why accumulating wealth is nearly impossible? Do you mean just saving money?
- dogma1138 9y ago
  CoL shouldn't be completely detached from your income a better metric would be your relative purchasing power which is going to be higher in SV. After 10-15 years in SV it's not unheard off to accumulate wealth well north of 500K$, many people I know in the US I know have accumulated about 1M in total assets in the past 10 years or so. Compared that to Europe and it's a completely different picture.
apexalpha 9y ago
Yes, you are right about most things. I live in NL and just started as a software engineer this year. I make 45k. Probably a lot less than someone in the US with a similar position. The story has 2 sides though: you have to pay a lot of things we in Europe take for granted. And you should include those payments in you calculations. And most of the things like healthcare, depend on you having a job. I will never be without healthcare. Education costs are €2000 a year for uni, free for anything below. Unemployment benefits for up to 3 years after losing my job. State pension when I retire. More personal freedoms. 30 vacations days + 10 national holidays. Etc... Money isn't everything.
- msmm 9y ago
  You pay for all of this in taxes and sometimes you pay for nothing. For example you can either wait couple of months to see a specialist or go privately. If you go privately then you essentially pay twice for healthcare. On top of that your taxes pay for all the red tape. You are being brainwashed by socialist media that it is for your good.
- meddlepal 9y ago
  I would argue the American attitude is: Money is everything because with enough money you can have anything. It's just a different perspective on life.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    It's not about money it's about self reliance (responsibility) and agency. I'm not an American I live and work in Europe. Yes there are a lot of services but it's not a clear cut case for the upper middle class. "Working rich" is a concept that isn't possible in Europe outside of upper management or self employed. Yes we get healthcare albit everyone in their right mind who can afford it still gets private insurance. Yes we get cheap education but then we also don't get to decide where to send our children to school and private schools in countries that still have them cost a nice sum. Luxury is much harde to attain working in the Tech sector nice cars, houses taking a good vacation etc. Take the example above 45K Euros with a tax rate of about 40% and 20% VAT. Your purchasing power at that point is lower than someone in the US who makes about 35-38K a year and gets medical coverage from their employer.

msmm 9y ago

If you compare SV to some village in Romania then yes, it is cheap to live. But if you take salaries into account, you will be living from paycheck to paycheck, forget about saving anything. Prices in London are exorbitant for something habitable. Even if you choose to live in a shoebox, you hardly get any decent living from average £60k senior dev salary.