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The growth of the European startup scene
- boona 9y agoI'm very skeptical of that claim. Besides the fact that every week we read an article about X city is the new Silicon Valley, Europeans in general don't seem to have that same drive Americans do to create new products. Which could explain why we haven't seen many large innovative tech companies come out of there in a while. (Though in countries like the Czech Republic, and to a lesser extent places like Romania and Poland seem to have more drive, and the work ethic to boot.) Edit: I'm not saying that they haven't achieved say a better work/life balance, but that their culture doesn't seem to produce very many world changing entrepreneurs as evidenced by so few companies being created there and that stay there. I'm not sure what's going on with the Hacker News culture lately, but it seems to be increasingly hostile to diversity of thought. I get that comparing cultures has come under fire from the extreme political left, but that's no reason we can't have a discussion about it. I would like it if members didn't just downvote me, but engage me instead. Anecdotally, I've been to several European countries, I've engaged with local populations, and the culture is different. And empirically, they're not innovating anywhere near the rate the US is. I'm willing to change my views, I would love to be wrong and that Europe will experience an entrepreneurial renaissance, but I just don't see it. Tell me where I'm wrong.
- rmc 9y ago> Europeans in general don't seem to have that same drive Americans do to create new products Maybe they don't want to work 70 hour weeks?
- JumpCrisscross 9y agoProbably. Same result. These are trade-offs made in picking a social model. Higher subjective happiness, perhaps, in exchange for a loss of competitiveness. As long as the latter isn't so much that it makes the former unsustainable, I think it is a fair choice. Not what would make me happy, though.
- boona 9y agoExactly. Elon Musk has been working 80 hour work weeks for the past 20 years now. I'm not saying that's anywhere near a balanced lifestyle. But without those sacrifices, it's much harder to produce innovative world changing products or services. The United States creates and draws those character types to it, and for many Europeans countries, they don't.
- danielam 9y agoThere's a body of research that corroborates the opposite claim, i.e., that past a certain point, working more hours does not correlate with -- or correlates negatively with -- effectiveness. So if Europe is less "innovative", the reasons are not likely related to a simplistic measure like hours worked.
- EduardoBautista 9y agoAnd I am sure there are exceptions to that claim, e.g. Elon Musk. Not all humans are wired the same way. People that can work 80 hour weeks effectively are rare, which is why those types of CEOs have million dollar salaries.
- smsm42 9y agoOn overall, probably not. There's a difference though between average load and peak load. Virtually nobody could sustain a 80 hour work weak for an extended time. A lot of people could do it for a short time, provided the possibility of a large reward.
- aries1980 9y agoI'm pretty sure the accumulation of capital that draws people to SV and New York. There were numerous studies, e.g. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geography_of_Venture_Capital_Contracts https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228200217_The_Geogr... . That's why it is really hard to set foot 50 miles further than the centre of VCs, not because it is harder to attract talent.) “In Connecticut and Massachusetts the proportion of investments located within 50 miles of the investor’s home or office is 37% (Freear et al, 1992). In New England the equivalent proportion is 58% (Wetzel, 1981) while in Ottawa the proportion is 85% (this high proportion reflecting its proximity to different cultural and political milieus to the north and south and distance from other major urban areas in English-speaking Canada). In the UK, Mason and Harrison (1994) found that two-thirds of investments by UK business angels were made within 100 miles of home.” http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ http://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/15803/ This slowly changes, but still, matters.
- watwut 9y agoJust about any study about effective I read concluded that working more then 50 hours a week shows you down.
- watwut 9y agoWas supposed to be "slows".
- smsm42 9y agoMaybe. And that's totally valid choice. But hardly compatible with high-risk high-reward culture that most startups - at least initially - are. I mean, you certainly can run a startup on 9-to-5 40 days off per yer schedule. It just the chances of it succeeding will be somewhat less than one where people are willing to put 70 hour weeks in. If these diminished chances are enough for you - great. But overall the model would have less prolific startup scene - which is what, I think, we do observe.
- geff82 9y agoOnly because they have not yet come to the US, it does not mean they aren't productive, international businesses.
- boona 9y agoWhat are they waiting for? Why aren't they providing their services to the most lucrative market on the planet?
- geff82 9y agoWhy is not every US startup in EU, the biggest western other market? a.) maybe it does not make sense due to the type of product b.) maybe it is not time yet c.) maybe they find their home market profitable enough.
- geff82 9y agoAnd don't get me started on US visa policies to start an office there. I for one am currently in the surprisingly easy straightforward process of hiring highly qualified Iranians - which surely hesitate to come to you currently.
- flexie 9y agoThe US has one thing that Europeans cannot compete with: One language spoken by close to all 320M Americans as a native language and spoken by More than a billion worldwide as first or second language and which also happens to be the language most technology uses, incl in documentation and tutorials. Would Google have reached global fame if it had been in French to begin with? Of course not. What about if Facebook started at Bocconi and in Italian? No way Americans would have adopted it (let alone Spanish or Dutch). Bureaucracy, taxes and other obstacles are possibly worse in the US than in most European countries (I lived both there and in three different European countries). We have very little to learn from the US in that respect. But without a common language it's difficult for Europeans. It's not a coincidence that most good startups in Europe are in countries where English is a first or very strong second language (UK, NL, Scandinavia etc).
- Nursie 9y agoHave you been to much of Europe? English is spoken very well in much of Europe and, well, there's the UK and Ireland...
- ensiferum 9y agoNo it is not except for Scandinavia and just around Denmark. In reality the further south you go the more you really need to speak the local.
- johansch 9y agoI have found it a lot easier to get by (talking to locals) in Tokyo using English than in for instance Madrid.
- Lio 9y agoI can't comment on Tokyo but just to offer another point anecdote, I've found it pretty easy to talk to people recently in Portugal, Spain, Germany and Belgium. Most communication starts with my apologetic expression for the cultural faux pas which is about to commited. I then move on to a token effort at mangling the local language which finally ends with me being asked to repeat in English by a patient native.
- pottersbasilisk 9y agoI hope not. The pay of developers is horrible compared to silicon valley.
- geff82 9y agoMaybe pay in startups is not good, but if you need a kick of money, go contracting in big business and get wealthy... there is more than startups to tech.
- Thaxll 9y agoThey probably don't pay 1.5k/month to live in a RV.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- DarkKomunalec 9y agoIs that scaled to cost of living?
- cirgue 9y agoNo, not by a long shot.
- ews 9y agoThis. I moved from SF to Berlin accepting a 40% paycut. My standard of living in Germany was probably 2.5x compared to California. However, I decided to go back to San Francisco. There is definitely much more interesting work in Silicon Valley, at least in my field. This may change over time but I am not holding my breath.
- tzakrajs 9y agoMakes you reconsider what quality of living really means.
- friendlyfireman 9y ago
- rhapsodic 9y agoThis is a dupe of a recent posting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14432977
- jankotek 9y agoHiring people from abroad is also easier in Europe.
- msmm 9y agoThe pay is like half of the SV, and then around half of it you pay in taxes for mediocre services. You have to buy private health insurance on to of that if you don't want to die in public health sector. Then you have infestation of all sorts of terrorists and other low lifes, censorship and political correctness. If you happen to be in the UK your internet is also monitored. Europe is a socialist police state. No thanks.
- orf 9y agoThat's not a very nice or accurate comment. Sure, SV salaries are higher but it's bound to be like that. Even without taking into account the SV monoculture and exchange rate differences the cost of living in SV is far far far higher than a lot of Europe. Plus, you know, culture. Lots of culture.
- dogma1138 9y agoThe CoL in Europe isn't much cheaper if you take in the large tech hubs. People also underestimate the value of being able to occomulate wealth which is nearly impossible in Europe. Salaries are much lower, taxation is much higher, bonuses are a joke and real equity is almost unheard of. Startups in Europe also tend to pay less than the established businesses which makes it much harder for them to attract good talent other than the original founders and fresh graduates. This also arguably extends to the tech sector at large if you are a developer you would be much better off working for a bank or any other financial institution, a consulting firm (esp big4) or in any other "non-tech" industry as the pay and the job security tends to be much better. This is pretty much the opposite of SV.
- orf 9y agoI agree about the pay and the hardship in attracting talent, to a degree. These are good points and a definite problem in the EU. However, excluding London (which is a bubble in itself), the CoL at all major tech hubs (and all cities) in Europe is much less than SV. Check out some of the comments here for anecdotal evidence, or just compare the cost of housing online, in Berlin for example (one of the most expensive cities). Taxes are higher, but perhaps it's an American thing to see taxes as the root of all evil. You get a lot for your taxes. Can you elaborate on why accumulating wealth is nearly impossible? Do you mean just saving money?
- tzakrajs 9y agoIf Europe is better than Silicon Valley, where is the output? They have been silent compared to Silicon Valley in most markets.
- kuisch 9y agoTo name a few -- Payments: Adyen, Transferwise, and (arguably) Stripe Music: Spotify, Soundcloud. Shazam Travel: Booking.com, SkyScanner Fashion: Zalando Telecommunications: Skype Gaming: Rovio (Angry Birds), King (Candy Crush), Supercell (a.o. Clash of Clans)
- oskarth 9y ago> Stripe The opposite. They specifically moved to US, presumably because it was so much better than EU. https://patrickcollison.com/post/stripe-ireland https://patrickcollison.com/post/stripe-ireland
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoyet Europe has a population more than twice the US.
- relyio 9y agoBut a much more segmented market, what is your point? Europe is not a country.
- mnm2 9y agoThe attempts of the EU try to make Europe something like a country ("United States of Europe") and yes, Europe is much more segmented (yet alone by languages, but also culturally). We all know the problems (a money union without a full political union and Brussel dictating to formally self-determined states/countries). You are twisting reality
- em3rgent0rdr 9y agoThe parent lists a handful of European startups. Just incase that list was being presented as an example of Europe's startup prowess, I just wanted to temper any enthusiasm by pointing out that on a per-capita basis, the density of startups is much lower in Europe.
- wuschel 9y agoThe article is the usual PR piece on startup sectors in the EU. Unfortunately, writing hype articles like that do not make things better. From my personal observation, there is a huge difference in funding/regulatory/technology adoption and available workforce.
- tyrw 9y agoWishful thinking, and hilarious that I had to clear a cookie notification just to read the first part of the article. It's that kind of forward thinking web bureaucracy that has allowed SV to flourish.
- mbaha 9y agoI didn't understand your comment. 1) Do you think cookie notifications are a bad thing ? 2) Do you think it is web bureaucracy ? If so, laws protecting every european citizen with digital neutrality are also bureaucratic ?
- UweSchmidt 9y agoPersonal Observation: Cookies are an antipattern since you have to sully your webdesign with this awful message.
- johansch 9y agoI don't even know where to begin with this one. I guess it's hilarious that we have found a defender of the incredibly stupid EU cookie notification law on an actual tech forum. Or maybe just sad. One of the two. It's unique though!
- pluma 9y agoThe implementation is bad. The intentions were good. The point of cookie notifications was to make users aware of tracking cookies (i.e. the kind used by Facebook, Google and other advertisers to follow you across the sites you visit) and ultimately require user consent. Sadly the actual law ended up far less nuanced and the way people implemented it completely bypasses the original intent (mostly because website owners and lawyers don't care about the distinction or don't understand it).
- tortasaur 9y agoThere's a difference between protecting citizens and overloading them with meaningless warnings that just end up desensitizing them.
- ever1 9y agoLiving in Paris, I can feel a strong momentum of entrepreneurship and startups. ex: Recent "Station F" incubator from Xavier Niel is opening in 2018 and will be one of the largest startup campus in the World. Macron is strongly pro-startup. there are a LOT of options for funding (quite crazy when I saw how much we can get with my startup (Banque publique d'investissement, crédit impôt recherche...). It is really easy to start a startup, not much paperwork (surprisingly). Contrary to 10 years ago, best students coming from "les grandes ecoles" want to be entrepreneur or join a startup. This is a radical change to the mindset from the past when the best opportunity would be in big companies. PhD start to be recognised as they should in private sector and more PhD are leaving academic to private (which I did). Now, I think that comparing Europe to SV is too premature, (A change in culture is yet to come). But the dynamic is here. In Paris, salaries in tech startups are high (for what I saw: ~42K junior, ~60 senior (5y)) compared to the cost of living (in France healthcare and education are free), rent is high. So yeah, I am confident for the future of Europe :) edit: and from what I saw, most startups' products have english language available (interface/doc). Most of them have international expansion in mind.
- majewsky 9y ago> salaries in tech startups are high (for what I saw: ~42K junior, ~60 senior (5y)) Are the salaries at the big corps lower than that in France? In Germany, I get about the same working at a big software company in a developer/architect role.
- ever1 9y agoI gave an average, in big companies it depends on which company you are working for, which "Grande ecole" you come from, and what position you have. I would say that the variance is quite high.
- CaseInsensitive 9y agoSilicon Valley has 30bn venture cap. Germany 3bn.
- superplussed 9y agoWhat did this statement mean: "It’s very difficult for American startups to relocate post-Trump."