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Coffee from California
- 4714 9y ago"And they see more and more American consumers willing to spend $8 or $12 for a cup of joe, which would offset their high costs of production." Good luck!
- carbocation 9y agoI spend only slightly more than that for 3 pounds of Kirkland Signature grounds...
- dublinclontarf 9y agoHow long does that last you?
- carbocation 9y agoA month or two, typically.
- dublinclontarf 9y agoGreat value.
- DiabloD3 9y agoI'd like to say I spend around that for 8 O'Clock 100% Colombian whole beans in 3 pound bags; which is incidentally the cheapest drinkable coffee on the market (Maxwell House and Folgers, imnsho are nigh undrinkable; for those that grind yourselves, you can get both as whole bean, you just sometimes have to hit up a restaurant supply store to find it). The only way I'd pay more than, say, $5 a pound (nice round figure, both of us are paying slightly less) is if it was _really fucking good_. I mean, really good. The kind of good that when other people told me how good it is, I'd tell them that I buy the damned coffee, I know how good it is, you don't have to tell me how good it is. California has dominated the olive oil and wine lists, but it doesn't mean I'm going out and buying $50-100 bottles of wine and $10-20 tiny ass bottles of olive oil. I buy what is good, not what is perfect.
- brians 9y agoThat's about where Blue Bottle and Counter Culture live: coffee that makes hardened street palettes numbed by decades of Dunkies reach for the word "terroir." They have to import from Kenya, Sumatra, a bunch of other complicated places far away. Being able to produce and sell entirely in the low-corruption West—otherwise restricted to Costa Rica—is a game changer.
- driverdan 9y agoExperiment and try a variety of beans. You can do this by going to a good coffee shop that has multiple beans and try a different one each day. Once you build your palate you may find you never want to go back. Worst case you decide it's not worth the extra money and can feel smug in your decision to stick with the cheap stuff.
- DiabloD3 9y agoI did try quite a few over the years. They all tasted different, they all had their own particular personality... but sometimes I just want consistent caffeine that tastes like coffee, and not burnt ass. Not tasting like burnt ass is, thankfully, a low bar to clear; it's less the quality of the beans and whatnot, and more your brew method when it's that bad.
- denim_chicken 9y agoSome people just have too much money.
- duncan_bayne 9y agoWhere "some people" always means "those just a bit richer than I am", right? ;)
- ars 9y agoAnd I'm always glad when they spend it :) We should be encouraging rich people to spend money, not shaming them for it.
- cylinder 9y agoI would rather there be less rich people looking to spend frivolously and more regular people able to spend for basic needs.
- greglindahl 9y agoAren't baristas regular people? They appear to be in the coffee places I frequent.
- sgustard 9y agoYes, it would be delightful if the $8-$12 spent on a cup of coffee included a $5 tip.
- greglindahl 9y agoThe place in Palo Alto that I buy cappuccino from has service included, 20% for the servers on top of their salaries. I can't imagine any industry where a 63% tip on top of salary would make sense.
- falsedan 9y ago
- blazespin 9y agoThis is relevant, why? "There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian Islands producing as much as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year; California produces only hundreds of pounds. Globally, 12 billion pounds of coffee are consumed each year
- chillingeffect 9y agoThe idea is that we catch trends while they are still nascent, before every random person in the mainstream does.
- blazespin 9y agoPretty nascent. .00000035 of the market. I could write a blog post and capture more market share than that.
- cm2012 9y agoEven top notch beans from CounterCulture are $18 for 12 oz. This would pretty much br a gimmick status symbol for the wealthy
- hn_throwaway_99 9y agoSo what? There are lots of status symbol/gimmick products that are successful. Also, I would expect the price to go down over time as production and use of automated machinery increased.
- skookumchuck 9y agoCoffee, strawberries, and chocolate are the foods of the gods.
- thaumasiotes 9y agoYou're thinking of ambrosia.
- pdog 9y ago> And they see more and more American consumers willing to spend $8 or $12 for a cup of joe, which would offset their high costs of production. A single pound of coffee makes about 50 cups. Who seriously pays this much?
- ams6110 9y agoI was in Starbucks the other day and someone ordered an iced latte with 11 shots. At about $1/shot plus cost of the latte it was about $14.
- percentcer 9y agoEleven shots??
- DiabloD3 9y agoOne for each homie that died of a heart attack for attempting this.
- toomuchtodo 9y agoReminds me of the Futurama episode where Fry purchases 100 cups of coffee and momentarily has super human hummingbird-esq abilities.
- xcasperx 9y agoOne of Keurig's cofounders had caffeine poisoning after drinking like 30-40 cups a day back in like 1995. He then, in 1997, got pushed out by the company, with no equity, and sold the patents to the company for $50,000. Pretty rough
- uep 9y agoI drink coffee regularly, but I don't think I could even get to 15 cups a day without serious issues. Dave Grohl, of the Foo Fighters, ended up going to the hospital because of drinking too much coffee/caffeine. http://www.nme.com/news/music/them-crooked-vultures-14-1294541 http://www.nme.com/news/music/them-crooked-vultures-14-12945... https://youtu.be/fhdCslFcKFU?t=111 https://youtu.be/fhdCslFcKFU?t=111
- theparanoid 9y ago"There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian Islands producing as much as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year; California produces only hundreds of pounds." California coffee production would have to increase by five orders of magnitude to compare with Hawaii.
- hammock 9y agoSounds like a great opportunity for startup capital. Is 10x growth every year for 4 years that unreasonable to you?
- theparanoid 9y agoFor one coffee plants take half a decade to produce.
- ars 9y ago> which takes half a decade to produce. So what you are saying is that in about 10 years California could match Hawaii output? That doesn't seem very long to me, not for this business.
- Turing_Machine 9y agoAnd then 10 years after that, California coffee would be overplanted and the price would crash. :-) The current almond glut is a cautionary tale. Lead times measured in years (sometimes decades) is one of the many problems inherent in being a farmer.
- grenoire 9y agoUnder the assumption that Hawaii supply will not increase at all in those 10 years, sure...
- cylinder 9y agoIs there a word for "I was researching an obscure topic and then a couple hours later a major publication writes about it?" I was just researching boutique coffee growing farms in tropical Australia and wondering if in the future people would pay double what they pay now for coffee. And then this shows up on hn.
- joshvm 9y agoIt's called the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon or frequency illusion.
- jschulenklopper 9y agoThat's funny... I accidentally stumbled upon the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon last week (reading the article at https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon/ https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomeno...) and now I notice it again! It's Baader-Meinhof applied to itself :-)
- raverbashing 9y agoGet drip coffee and add milk. There's your coffee Some people don't know what they're doing
- falsedan 9y agoThe baristas at work tell me off for adding milk to their batch brew. Mind, they have extremely good quantity control & carefully select their beans, so it tastes pretty good just by itself.
- raverbashing 9y agoThen I agree with them, but we were talking about a Starbucks latte with 11 shots
- falsedan 9y agoOh, I missed the context. I agree 100%
- falsedan 9y agoAlternative post: > Some people don't know what they're doing I think they know exactly how to signal their bourgeoisie values to their peers.
- dang 9y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14436893 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14436893 and marked it off-topic.
- CaliforniaKarl 9y agoI love this, for a number of reasons. This is a great example of taking a coasting or downward-trending venture and pivoting into something new, without sacrificing your existing cash flow. It seems like the proof of concept is going well, confirming that the basic model is sound. What comes next is to scale it up. The farmers are also researching existing innovations in the field (i.e. harvesters), with the goal of extending those innovations to meet the field's unique challenges. They are also selling initial product, which although is much more expensive than similar products of this type, is serving to bootstrap continued and expanded production, with the goal of reducing price by increasing supply. (Huh, I think I went off on a tangent and started taking about Tesla.) I don't understand why people would throw shade onto this. Not only is this entrepreneurial spirit, it's _successful_ entrepreneurial spirit. I wish them all the best! EDIT: Spelling
- colechristensen 9y agoDid I miss the pricing bit? All I saw was a quote saying that specialty coffee that sells for $120/lb exists, not that these places are selling it. (if you're looking for it you can find absurdly expensive anything, the only coffee you'll find at that top price is probably kopi luwak where they harvest the beans from civet poop)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- leeoniya 9y ago> where they harvest the beans from civet poop and typically abuse these poor animals in the process [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/sep/13/civet-coffee-cut-the-crap https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2013/se...
- 13of40 9y agoThere's a lot of "I" in that article.
- pfooti 9y agoThe important question is: is it good? I typically spend around $25 / pound on coffee beans, which is a fairly large amount of money. But: the beans I buy are very freshly roasted right near where I live and make excellent coffee (which I make by the cup, pour-over style), and I only drink a cup or two a day. I'd see my way to paying more if the beans were somehow qualitatively better - I had some $50 / lb coffee once that was totally worth it (I hate to use the word mouthfeel, but this coffee really legit had a velvety rich mouthfeel that I'd never experienced in a cup of coffee before or since, and a great aroma and flavor to go with it), and I've tried other coffees that were high up on the expense level that were totally not worth it. Most probably aren't worth it. So: how does it compare? Is the ridiculous price just because you're from california? No thanks, I'll take my ethiopian amaro gayo, tyvm.
- greglindahl 9y ago$25 is not very much when you compare it to other luxury goods, like wine or whisky or cask-aged beers. I started drinking coffee because it was a relatively inexpensive hobby.
- bbcbasic 9y agoEssentially thats tax minimisation
- ozi 9y agoPeople aren't consuming those on a a daily basis; not really a fair comparison.
- hvidgaard 9y agoIf you're from Italy, Spain, or France to name a few, you do drink a glas every day. But either way, a single good bottle of wine is at least a pound of good coffee. Few people drink that much coffee.
- greglindahl 9y agoI don't know what "people" you know, but quite a few of my friends who drink both drink a lot more $ of alcohol than coffee.
- 11thEarlOfMar 9y agoAs with the wine industry, University of California at Davis has established a coffee research program, in part funded by Peet's Coffee. I did a double take the first time I heard of this, but it make sense and now I wonder why it didn't happen sooner, given UC Davis' focus on specialty agriculture: https://coffeecenter.ucdavis.edu/ https://coffeecenter.ucdavis.edu/ http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article100401787.html http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article100401787.html
- theparanoid 9y agoIt'd be a plus if they sell specialty beans. The similar UCD Meat Lab has excellent meat (in my opinion).
- aorloff 9y agoBest coffee in CA http://www.colecoffee.com/ http://www.colecoffee.com/ $15-17/lb
- ocb 9y agoSide note: coffee is also produced in Puerto Rico. Whether or not that should be counted as part of the US is debatable but it's interesting that there was no mention. Edit: NPR article from 2015[1] discussing coffee production in Puerto Rico. [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/13/404228117/puerto-rico-wants-to-grow-your-next-cup-of-specialty-coffee http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/13/404228117/pue...
- heartbreak 9y agoSince when is Puerto Rico not part of the US?
- ocb 9y agoObviously it is legally a territory of the US and Puerto Ricans are American citizens but it's not one of the 50 states.
- heartbreak 9y agoIt contributes to GDP, so why shouldn't it contribute to coffee production stats?
- ocb 9y agoBecause it's distinct culturally and politically from the 50 states and (along with the US's other territories) therefore not always necessarily included when one is discussing the United States. Nor do its inhabitants necessarily identify as Americans. I'm not sure why you're being so pedantic, anyways. I was just hinting at a reason for why the author of this article didn't mention Puerto Rico when they said that Hawaii was the only place in the US where serious coffee cultivation occurs.
- eloisant 9y agoSo just like Washington DC?
- dmritard96 9y agowould this meet Rainforest Alliance standards? With coffee being the worlds second largest commodity, I am particularly bothered by both my addiction and the difficultly in finding Rainforest Alliance certified options. It seems like fair trade is easy to find in Trader Joes for instance, but after 20 minutes of looking/reading, I simply couldn't find beans that weren't possibly deforesting rainforests are that had their CO2 footprints examined/offset. Hoping this could be a great win for labor, rain forests (reusing existing agricultural land), etc. One other point - their trees have been getting older and there is more forign competition is growing BUT, demand has outpaced supply with prices being high, more mainstream consumption in North America and now increasingly in Asia Pacific. I read a lot about the Avacado industry (not really sure why) but from what I have seen from the Avacado's growers groups, their profits have been skyrocketing with demand changes over the last 20 years.
- eltondegeneres 9y agoFair Trade standards are stricter than Rainforest Alliance. You can read the guidelines here, which includes protections against deforestation: https://fairtradeusa.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/filemanager/APS_Updates_Feb_2017/FTUSA_STD_APS_EN_1.0.0.pdf https://fairtradeusa.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/fileman... Fair trade certified shade grown coffee is probably your best bet for farmer and earth friendly coffee.
- more_bees_plz 9y agoFair Trade standards are actually considered to be equal to Rainforest Alliance standards in terms of environmental and social sustainability. Rainforest Alliance farms prohibit deforestation, have specific guidelines for protecting wildlife and water quality, and demand that workers are paid minimum wage/have the right to organize + more. Read the standard here: http://sanstandard2017.ag/ http://sanstandard2017.ag/ And if you need to find Rainforest Alliance certified coffee, you can find it for sure at all Whole Foods, some of their Allegro brands are certified. Or you can use this tool: http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/find-certified http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/find-certified
- ereyes01 9y agoI hope the prices for these coffees come down, though I get why business-wise it makes sense for them to target the ultra-high-end market at their stage. The idea of good coffee from somewhere as close as California is a bit exciting to me. --- Sorry if the rest is slightly off-topic. After reading all the comments here about the coffee prices mentioned in the article, and seeing what every considers "normal" prices, I feel compelled to make the following PSA: Save your money and roast your own coffee at home, if you are able to (* more on that below). I've been doing this for about 3 years now. There's a small learning curve, but as Kenneth Davids puts it in his book [1] (paraphrasing): "The difficulty of roasting coffee is somewhere between frying an egg and making a good hollandaise". I buy my favorite coffees from around the world as dried green beans for around $5-7 per pound. Furthermore, coffee greens can last quite a while in your pantry if kept in well ventilated burlap sacks (a couple years, or more). This allows me to stockpile like 50 pounds of coffee to roast throughout the year. Also, there's really nothing that quite compares to coffee a day or two after it's been roasted. I can easily brew way better coffee than most coffee shops here in Austin, TX (though there's a couple exceptional ones here with more time/skill/resources than I). To roast coffee, my low-budget setup is: - A heavy pan / popcorn popper (mine: https://www.amazon.com/Zippy-Pop-Stovetop-Capacity-Stainless/dp/B00PFRRA0Q) - A portable heat source (I use an induction range) - Colander / wooden spoon / shop fan - A well-ventilated outdoor space (a balcony does just fine), there's smoke / messy chaff (* if you don't have access to outdoor space, it can be a deal breaker) Every week, I spend about 20 minutes total roasting a new batch of coffee (end up with ~12oz roasted). Total equipment investment for me was like $150. I can also enjoy some really great espresso with my budget setup (manual lever machine + Pharos hand grinder), but doing that well is a steeper learning curve. [1] Kenneth Davids. Home Coffee Roasting. https://www.amazon.com/Home-Coffee-Roasting-Revised-Updated/dp/0312312199 https://www.amazon.com/Home-Coffee-Roasting-Revised-Updated/... http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/ http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/ is also a great resource.
- pfooti 9y agoI've tried (I use the coffee popper), and it's very satisfying, but also I'm pretty bad at it. I'm pretty sure I can't get the heat to evenly distribute right - I ended up with some beans way scorched. Still, fun.
- pkulak 9y agoRead through the whole thing looking to explain how this is even possible. Is the "coffee belt" not as absolute as I thought? Can you just grow arabica anywhere?
- lostlogin 9y agoThere's a small one growing in my dining room. Auckland, New Zealand.
- firloop 9y agoYou can buy coffee from one of the farms here for $96 a pound (~$86/lb if you buy 12 oz). https://goodlandorganics.com/store/roasted-coffee https://goodlandorganics.com/store/roasted-coffee Not sure if I could stomach paying $6.50/cup for my daily pourover that I make at home, but hey, this is out there.
- pash 9y agoI don't suppose California's farmers are stupid, so I presume it's someone else's stupidity that has made it attractive to grow coffee, the latest in a long line of water-intensive crops, in dry southern California. When are Californians going to realize that it's this sort of thing, not a decent shower, that is the cause of the ill effects of a decade of drought? And why do Californians keep subsidizing farmers' water-usage when that is plainly the root of the problem?
- DanBC 9y agohttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/food-water-footprint_n_5952862.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/food-water-footprin... > Coffee requires almost 10 times as much water [than tea], using 1,056 gallons of water per gallon of brewed coffee. That's a lot.
- philippoi 9y agoThere's a good deal of variation. Without digging into how that figure was produced, it could be worthwhile to mention that the production process Jay Ruskey says he's interested in cuts a lot of water out of the process. Once coffee cherries are picked, getting down to the seed inside (aka "coffee bean") can happen one of roughly three ways: "natural process", letting the coffee fruit dry out like a raisin on the seed; soaking/fermentation, letting the coffee soak in water for 24-48 hours once (or often twice in Kenya); mechanical demucilagation, separating the seeds from the rest with a machine. The demucilager is common in Costa Rica. I can dig up some more material later, but the government in Costa Rica is strict about water waste, essentially requiring farmers use demucilagers to process their coffee. I don't know how much this would affect the water involved in coffee production, but I would guess it would drop the amount necessary for production in cases like Ruskey's.
- masklinn 9y agoCoffee seems to be more comfortable in warmer and drier locales than tea though, and very high lands. Furthermore, I don't know about tea but coffee can be shade-grown in polycultures e.g. in the shade of fruit trees.
- 9y ago