4 ms·

Why would you leave yourself in this low practiced state? Ie you don't spend the time to become fluent, so it's always "thinking" instead of being able to just

Why would you leave yourself in this low practiced state? Ie you don't spend the time to become fluent, so it's always "thinking" instead of being able to just do. Incidentally you should always always leave the insert mode when you are done typing. You are never confused about state because your default is "normal mode".

horsawlarway 9y ago
Because becoming fluent has a cost value trade off, and I think there are a lot of people who simply don't think time invested in that is worth it. I touch a terminal a lot, and I don't value vim enough to become fluent. I certainly know how to use it, and I know a fair bit of the commands, but it's nowhere close to my preferred workflow. Plus, there's a huge array of tools out there to allow me to work with files in the editor of my choice, even when working on remote machines. Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I prefer an editor that treats the mouse like it's useful, rather than an add on that you can enable with extensions if desired.
- lelandbatey 9y ago
  I can see where you're coming from when it comes to comfort with the mouse, though I don't think you should emphasize it too much if you've never experienced some kind of "never leave the keyboard" system that you're fluent in. It may or may not be faster than a mouse, but it's faaaaar more precise and for me feels very satisfying in a tactile sense. Though in my experience, once you go all in, you start trying to get it to work on everything; in my case that means vim keybindings for everything, including web browser, and it can be a bit jarring to give it up when you use someone else's computer.
  - simondedalus 9y ago
    yeah, i recently downloaded intellij idea for the first time (i generally eschew IDEs) to try my hand at kotlin, and when the "use vim keybindings? " option popped up during setup i was like "(very satisfied and refreshed) ahhhh..." works well too for a slim .vimrc user like myself.
- serf 9y ago
  >Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I prefer an editor that treats the mouse like it's useful, rather than an add on that you can enable with extensions if desired. Go figure. Roguelikes, UT, Doom, Quake , and the like from my past pushed me more than anything into learning and loving emacs keyboard bindings. No other way to experience that sort of speed-of-thought and precision in a UI/UX for me, and certain actions within emacs very much remind me of muscle-twitch maneuvers like rocket-jumping, bunnyhopping, or reload-canceling.
- xrisk 9y ago
  Growing up playing RTSes, I always found the keyboard to be indispensable ;)
- btschaegg 9y ago
  > Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. Funny you bring this up, since this reminds me of another discussion: I played a lot of videogames using keyboard and mouse, whereas some of my friends still own consoles and play (more or less) precision-based shooters using gamepads. Every now and then we used to have a couple of multiplayer matches locally on someone's PS. I still tend to skip my turns and just watch the others as gamepad based aiming in shooters tends to get me really frustrated. I'm used to the mouse and forcefully having removed the additional speed and precision it gives you while aiming feels terrible. I get the same feeling if I have to use an editor without Vim-style bindings, although I'm by no means an expert Vim user. The interesting thing there is that you won't ever find a precision-based first person shooter with crossplay between PC and consoles, because the mouse gives PC players that much of an advantage. > The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I agree with you there, but so far I've come to the conclusion that it's strengths don't really show if you mainly edit text. The mouse is amazing for precision-based positioning, much like an analog stick can be superior to WASD because it's not limited to 8 axes and has more than just an on/off nature. I find your other point far more important, though: > I don't value vim enough to become fluent. If you're not paid for the speed with which you edit text (and those jobs have become really rare nowadays), that's perfectly valid. Not everyone is interested in investing so much in a fringe activity, and we certainly would get far less done collectively if every tool would force a Vim-style learning curve on people.
  - flukus 9y ago
    > I still tend to skip my turns and just watch the others as gamepad based aiming in shooters tends to get me really frustrated. This is why I liked the controls in goldeneye, perfect dark and timesplitters. They had consoles in mind from the ground up so the embraced the lack of precision controls with things like auto aiming and level design (mostly flat). Every other console shooter (including all since Halo) has tried to use controllers as though they're a keyboard/mouse. The control scheme was also modal, where you'd have to hold down a button and not move if you wanted precision aiming.
ams6110 9y ago
I'm always confused as a 30 year emacs user, in which "Normal mode" is insert mode as it is in every other text editor/word processor. Vi[m] is backwards in comparison and while clearly it's possible to learn it to the point it makes sense, I think for people who use it only occasionally it's very awkward.

horsawlarway 9y ago

Because becoming fluent has a cost value trade off, and I think there are a lot of people who simply don't think time invested in that is worth it. I touch a terminal a lot, and I don't value vim enough to become fluent. I certainly know how to use it, and I know a fair bit of the commands, but it's nowhere close to my preferred workflow. Plus, there's a huge array of tools out there to allow me to work with files in the editor of my choice, even when working on remote machines. Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I prefer an editor that treats the mouse like it's useful, rather than an add on that you can enable with extensions if desired.

lelandbatey 9y ago
I can see where you're coming from when it comes to comfort with the mouse, though I don't think you should emphasize it too much if you've never experienced some kind of "never leave the keyboard" system that you're fluent in. It may or may not be faster than a mouse, but it's faaaaar more precise and for me feels very satisfying in a tactile sense. Though in my experience, once you go all in, you start trying to get it to work on everything; in my case that means vim keybindings for everything, including web browser, and it can be a bit jarring to give it up when you use someone else's computer.
- simondedalus 9y ago
  yeah, i recently downloaded intellij idea for the first time (i generally eschew IDEs) to try my hand at kotlin, and when the "use vim keybindings? " option popped up during setup i was like "(very satisfied and refreshed) ahhhh..." works well too for a slim .vimrc user like myself.
serf 9y ago
>Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I prefer an editor that treats the mouse like it's useful, rather than an add on that you can enable with extensions if desired. Go figure. Roguelikes, UT, Doom, Quake , and the like from my past pushed me more than anything into learning and loving emacs keyboard bindings. No other way to experience that sort of speed-of-thought and precision in a UI/UX for me, and certain actions within emacs very much remind me of muscle-twitch maneuvers like rocket-jumping, bunnyhopping, or reload-canceling.
xrisk 9y ago
Growing up playing RTSes, I always found the keyboard to be indispensable ;)
btschaegg 9y ago
> Finally, I grew up playing video games and using a computer, complete with modern input. Funny you bring this up, since this reminds me of another discussion: I played a lot of videogames using keyboard and mouse, whereas some of my friends still own consoles and play (more or less) precision-based shooters using gamepads. Every now and then we used to have a couple of multiplayer matches locally on someone's PS. I still tend to skip my turns and just watch the others as gamepad based aiming in shooters tends to get me really frustrated. I'm used to the mouse and forcefully having removed the additional speed and precision it gives you while aiming feels terrible. I get the same feeling if I have to use an editor without Vim-style bindings, although I'm by no means an expert Vim user. The interesting thing there is that you won't ever find a precision-based first person shooter with crossplay between PC and consoles, because the mouse gives PC players that much of an advantage. > The mouse is a first class input device, and I know how to use it effectively, quickly, and precisely to perform a wide variety of actions. I agree with you there, but so far I've come to the conclusion that it's strengths don't really show if you mainly edit text. The mouse is amazing for precision-based positioning, much like an analog stick can be superior to WASD because it's not limited to 8 axes and has more than just an on/off nature. I find your other point far more important, though: > I don't value vim enough to become fluent. If you're not paid for the speed with which you edit text (and those jobs have become really rare nowadays), that's perfectly valid. Not everyone is interested in investing so much in a fringe activity, and we certainly would get far less done collectively if every tool would force a Vim-style learning curve on people.
- flukus 9y ago
  > I still tend to skip my turns and just watch the others as gamepad based aiming in shooters tends to get me really frustrated. This is why I liked the controls in goldeneye, perfect dark and timesplitters. They had consoles in mind from the ground up so the embraced the lack of precision controls with things like auto aiming and level design (mostly flat). Every other console shooter (including all since Halo) has tried to use controllers as though they're a keyboard/mouse. The control scheme was also modal, where you'd have to hold down a button and not move if you wanted precision aiming.

ams6110 9y ago

I'm always confused as a 30 year emacs user, in which "Normal mode" is insert mode as it is in every other text editor/word processor. Vi[m] is backwards in comparison and while clearly it's possible to learn it to the point it makes sense, I think for people who use it only occasionally it's very awkward.