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Some people seem to believe that markets need to be free. They are against interference of the government to dictate what participants can or cannot do. This

by tai_hn 9y ago

Some people seem to believe that markets need to be free. They are against interference of the government to dictate what participants can or cannot do. This concept of a free market generally leads the privatization of the governmental function. They think therefore it’s best to deregulate as much as possible. I have to say that this is a ridiculous idea considering unfairness in our society. It is a proven fact that most rich people are rich for the simple reason that they were born into a rich family, while most poor people will remain poor throughout their lives simply because they were born into a poor family. Imagine the world where education, healthcare, public safety, criminal justice, national security and immigration are all up for sale(although it’s already happening in some countries...). This makes our level of inequality worse than ever because the more money can buy, the more affluence matters. What we need to do is not to discuss about the extreme logic between libertarianism and conservatism, but to decide what money should and should NOT be able to buy. Seems to me that free market believer doesn't realize that there IS a regulation that they value because they take its legitimacy for granted. For example, there are many things that we are not allowed to trade. Human slaves, human organs, electoral votes, government job and legal decisions, university places or uncertified medicines although they were legal before. On top of drawing the boundary of the market, government needs to design the rule to prevent corporations from behaving unethically. History tells us that corporation behave unethically without interference of the government. Actually, we have been fighting for that. Thanks to our ancestors, in a labor market, it is not allowed to have a child labor, and a minimum wage is protected by the government. People who believe in free market merely oversimplify things to make it easy to understand for them. What we truly need is a market with well-designed rules.

conanbatt 9y ago
I will answer seriously, but i must reprimand: you open up a post with a question, and your first comment already scorns and shows contempt for one of the two possible answers. If you want to truly hear the other side, you can expose your opinion as well as separate the issue at hand, being more inviting. Also the question itself lacks specificity. Is saying "No" meaning that you need to have a centralized market a.k.a. communism? Because if you are asking "Is communism the best for the public" you will get a very different answers. Be that as it may, I will still try to answer some points you raise here: > It is a proven fact that most rich people are rich for the simple reason that they were born into a rich family, while most poor people will remain poor throughout their lives simply because they were born into a poor family This is a given, but its not necessarily bad. In communism, everyone is born poor! We all agree that we want the best for our own children, and thats precisely what happens when you give your kid a house, a college education, etc. That some are better taken care than others is not a drain on society in anyway, its actually great. > Imagine the world where education, healthcare, public safety, criminal justice, national security and immigration are all up for sale(although it’s already happening in some countries...). This makes our level of inequality worse than ever because the more money can buy, the more affluence matters. All the things you say are always better for people with money than for people without. Literally every single one. But that doesn't mean it makes inequality worse, it can actually be making it less. A rich man that needs a security guard incurs an expense that goes to someone that wouldn't have that job otherwise. Or pays for a doctor that will devise a treatment that will be useful for other patients as well, etc. Regarding the insistent of inequality, i'd give you this thought exercise: do you prefer everyone had 2 apples, or everyone had 3 apples and one person had 1 million apples? > What we need to do is not to discuss about the extreme logic between libertarianism and conservatism, but to decide what money should and should NOT be able to buy. That's your opinion. I personally do not trust governments with my money, so i don't like them deciding what to do or not to do with my own labor. At least, libertarianism is not forcing you to do anything. > Seems to me that free market believer doesn't realize that there IS a regulation that they value because they take its legitimacy for granted. For example, there are many things that we are not allowed to trade. Human slaves, human organs, electoral votes, government job and legal decisions, university places or uncertified medicines although they were legal before. Oh boy. Free markets is about the liberty of exchange between a buyer and a seller, not the absence of law. Libertarianism is be very well against slavery. Human organs is kind of interesting, and votes also (i personally think votes should be able to be bought/sold, and can only imagine we think ill of that because of things from the past). But overall, the free markets is precisely about the rule of law and the absence of violence and coercion. > On top of drawing the boundary of the market, government needs to design the rule to prevent corporations from behaving unethically. History tells us that corporation behave unethically without interference of the government. Actually, we have been fighting for that. Thanks to our ancestors, in a labor market, it is not allowed to have a child labor, and a minimum wage is protected by the government. I once read about the case of street car companies complaining against segregation law, because it was just not good business. Jim crow's laws were designed by government, against the interests of corporations! As I mentioned in the before post, libertarianism and free market ideologues generally agree on the need of laws. Labor laws is a can of worms for a discussion at this level, it can take a long time to discuss: its been argued many times that minimum wage harms the poorest, and i can assure you there are definite externalities to unions and syndicates.
- atmosx 9y ago
  You start your comment with: I will answer seriously, but i must reprimand: you open up a post with a question, and your first comment already scorns and shows contempt for one of the two possible answers. And then you go with: In communism, everyone is born poor! Out of curiosity: Is an average kid born in Cuba poor compared to an average kid in US or Europe? I understand that living without internet access to us, is like living without oxygen, but I've heard that the happiness index in Cuba is pretty compared to US/EU. Their healthcare system for example, seems to be orders of magnitudes better than the US or the NHS (UK). ps. I'm taking Cuba and not former USSR countries on purpose. I believe that Cuba had a more successful version of communism.
  - fooza 9y ago
    Yeah. And I hear north korea is the greatest country in the world.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    Granted, the phrase has some comedic exaggeration, but in our worldly experience, communism may have reduced some extreme inequality(emphasis on may, since the ruling class in communism is always pretty rich), but it did so by decimating the middle class. For all the comparisons of Cuba and other capitalist countries i will make one argument that encompasses all the other: "See how people vote with their feet". How many people move TO cuba and how many people move out OF cuba. That should be enough to measure the relative expectation and standard of living of Cuba and the US.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  > If you want to truly hear the other side, you can expose your opinion as well as separate the issue at hand, being more inviting. I didn't get the sense he wanted to hear the other side at all, just express his point of view. By posting in a public forum of course it implies there will be responses but what I got from how you opened your response is an attempt to gain the moral high ground by chastising the above poster before making any points of your own.
- ue_ 9y ago
ParameterOne 9y ago
> What we need to do is not to discuss about the extreme logic between libertarianism and conservatism, but to decide what money should and should NOT be able to buy. Who do you think should have the power to decide that?? And why should someone not be able to buy something with money? This sounds like a great way to produce more black markets, and the spending of tax dollars to police it. Not ideal.

by tai_hn 9y ago

conanbatt 9y ago

I will answer seriously, but i must reprimand: you open up a post with a question, and your first comment already scorns and shows contempt for one of the two possible answers. If you want to truly hear the other side, you can expose your opinion as well as separate the issue at hand, being more inviting. Also the question itself lacks specificity. Is saying "No" meaning that you need to have a centralized market a.k.a. communism? Because if you are asking "Is communism the best for the public" you will get a very different answers. Be that as it may, I will still try to answer some points you raise here: > It is a proven fact that most rich people are rich for the simple reason that they were born into a rich family, while most poor people will remain poor throughout their lives simply because they were born into a poor family This is a given, but its not necessarily bad. In communism, everyone is born poor! We all agree that we want the best for our own children, and thats precisely what happens when you give your kid a house, a college education, etc. That some are better taken care than others is not a drain on society in anyway, its actually great. > Imagine the world where education, healthcare, public safety, criminal justice, national security and immigration are all up for sale(although it’s already happening in some countries...). This makes our level of inequality worse than ever because the more money can buy, the more affluence matters. All the things you say are always better for people with money than for people without. Literally every single one. But that doesn't mean it makes inequality worse, it can actually be making it less. A rich man that needs a security guard incurs an expense that goes to someone that wouldn't have that job otherwise. Or pays for a doctor that will devise a treatment that will be useful for other patients as well, etc. Regarding the insistent of inequality, i'd give you this thought exercise: do you prefer everyone had 2 apples, or everyone had 3 apples and one person had 1 million apples? > What we need to do is not to discuss about the extreme logic between libertarianism and conservatism, but to decide what money should and should NOT be able to buy. That's your opinion. I personally do not trust governments with my money, so i don't like them deciding what to do or not to do with my own labor. At least, libertarianism is not forcing you to do anything. > Seems to me that free market believer doesn't realize that there IS a regulation that they value because they take its legitimacy for granted. For example, there are many things that we are not allowed to trade. Human slaves, human organs, electoral votes, government job and legal decisions, university places or uncertified medicines although they were legal before. Oh boy. Free markets is about the liberty of exchange between a buyer and a seller, not the absence of law. Libertarianism is be very well against slavery. Human organs is kind of interesting, and votes also (i personally think votes should be able to be bought/sold, and can only imagine we think ill of that because of things from the past). But overall, the free markets is precisely about the rule of law and the absence of violence and coercion. > On top of drawing the boundary of the market, government needs to design the rule to prevent corporations from behaving unethically. History tells us that corporation behave unethically without interference of the government. Actually, we have been fighting for that. Thanks to our ancestors, in a labor market, it is not allowed to have a child labor, and a minimum wage is protected by the government. I once read about the case of street car companies complaining against segregation law, because it was just not good business. Jim crow's laws were designed by government, against the interests of corporations! As I mentioned in the before post, libertarianism and free market ideologues generally agree on the need of laws. Labor laws is a can of worms for a discussion at this level, it can take a long time to discuss: its been argued many times that minimum wage harms the poorest, and i can assure you there are definite externalities to unions and syndicates.

atmosx 9y ago
You start your comment with: I will answer seriously, but i must reprimand: you open up a post with a question, and your first comment already scorns and shows contempt for one of the two possible answers. And then you go with: In communism, everyone is born poor! Out of curiosity: Is an average kid born in Cuba poor compared to an average kid in US or Europe? I understand that living without internet access to us, is like living without oxygen, but I've heard that the happiness index in Cuba is pretty compared to US/EU. Their healthcare system for example, seems to be orders of magnitudes better than the US or the NHS (UK). ps. I'm taking Cuba and not former USSR countries on purpose. I believe that Cuba had a more successful version of communism.
- fooza 9y ago
  Yeah. And I hear north korea is the greatest country in the world.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Granted, the phrase has some comedic exaggeration, but in our worldly experience, communism may have reduced some extreme inequality(emphasis on may, since the ruling class in communism is always pretty rich), but it did so by decimating the middle class. For all the comparisons of Cuba and other capitalist countries i will make one argument that encompasses all the other: "See how people vote with their feet". How many people move TO cuba and how many people move out OF cuba. That should be enough to measure the relative expectation and standard of living of Cuba and the US.
jackvalentine 9y ago
> If you want to truly hear the other side, you can expose your opinion as well as separate the issue at hand, being more inviting. I didn't get the sense he wanted to hear the other side at all, just express his point of view. By posting in a public forum of course it implies there will be responses but what I got from how you opened your response is an attempt to gain the moral high ground by chastising the above poster before making any points of your own.
ue_ 9y ago

ParameterOne 9y ago

> What we need to do is not to discuss about the extreme logic between libertarianism and conservatism, but to decide what money should and should NOT be able to buy. Who do you think should have the power to decide that?? And why should someone not be able to buy something with money? This sounds like a great way to produce more black markets, and the spending of tax dollars to police it. Not ideal.