7 ms·

Actually, pretty good advice in the opposite direction, too. If I had known at 18 that I could have easily and successfully walked away from teams, bosses, comp

by afpx 9y ago

Actually, pretty good advice in the opposite direction, too. If I had known at 18 that I could have easily and successfully walked away from teams, bosses, companies, partners, and investors who gave 'bad vibes', I would easily have (at least!) an extra couple million in the bank. I wasted countless opportunities waiting for things to get better, when I probably intuitively knew that they wouldn't. Partly, it was because I didn't want to be considered inconsiderate or rude. But, also, it was because I latched on to other things: the mission, the market, the tech, the product, the teams, etc.

arjie 9y ago
If you don't mind sharing, how did you lose the couple million to these people?
- ckaygusu 9y ago
  I reckon it is meant in a "opportunity cost" kind of way.
  - arjie 9y ago
    Oh, I understand. I'm just wondering how choices were made which left many millions on the table. I didn't face any choices like that when I was younger so I'm curious.
    - daveguy 9y ago
      No offense, but you don't understand. Opportunity cost means specifically you aren't leaving money on the table. It means you are grabbing the pennies when you could be pursuing a more lucrative options. When you are 20 those options don't mean a million dollar deal, they mean not taking the better job that pays about the same but lets you earn 20k more in 2-3 years because you are doing something you love and thriving in it with fewer restarts. That over 20-40 years adds up to "millions in the bank", which is what the original poster said, not millions on the table. A few times not seeing bad management in a startup where you took options rather than a decent wage would do it too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
      - plesiv 9y ago
        OP wrote "an extra couple million in the bank"; since he didn't allude to opportunity costs himself I think there are at least a couple people reading the thread that would want to know what exactly that means. I never heard the phrase used to represent opportunity cost and it's not clear that OP intended it in that way.
      - afpx 9y ago
        You explained it, perfectly. Thanks!
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - arjie 9y ago
        I'm just interested in his story, man. I really don't want to argue about this.
    - afpx 9y ago
      Opportunity costs and the missed investment returns I am now in my mid 40s. I started working in tech in the mid-90s. I was ambitious and mainly only worked for or led tech startups. (I did well for myself, so can't complain too much) When I look back on my career, had I went with my intuition at critical times, instead of what I felt was 'my duty' (or whatever justification I made to deny my intuitive senses), I would clearly be further ahead. In total, I probably wasted several years waiting for people or situations to change for the better, passing up several ultimately better opportunities.
      - shamaku 9y ago
        One could say this about relationships too. Live and learn.
        pmarreck 9y ago
        Actually it struck me in the original article how it could also apply to any relationship.
      - arjie 9y ago
        Thanks for sharing, man.
usmeteora 9y ago
Thank you for saying this. Honestly, probably could have cut a total of four years of waste out of my life by just knowing the company was not a good fit for me. I used to stay at a place and say "Ok, maybe its me, what can I do to put the most effort in, and maybe that will change how upper level toxic management trickles down and fundamentally changes how politics over rule technology and data based decisions, or hard workers over letting the old boys club stay comfortable" I actually used to believe something I could do would change that or, if I worked hard enough or tip toed around management to make them feel comfortable about their culture and still find time to do the work I felt was important in my own time without offending people who felt comfortable consistently underperforming and had positions of superiority over me, that I would be recognized for my work, work ethic etc. no, that's not the case. Leave and leave fast because while I was the one who eventually chose to leave those companies, those companies are never going to acknowledge how much you are worth, or that they don't deserve you. They care about self preservation and staying there no matter how well you perform is not going to help you get a better job elsewhere. if it's short enough of a time then you don't even have to put it on your resume you worked there. A lesson I wish I knew fresh out of college. of course, all of these things about me are true. There is something you can always do to improve yourself, or change your mindset to help yourself change how you approach frustrating situations to change how a team might respond to a solution or a challenge, and foster a more positive environment. The biggest red flag? When you are constantly challenging yourself to grow and change to meet the needs of the company and find novel ways to contribute in your spare time, and basically having the "how can I rise to the challenge. How can I challenge myself? How can I grow?" mindset when management does not have a "how can we stay open minded and rise to meet the challenge" mindset. It's not just not a good fit for you, but it will be damaging to your career to be at odds with superiors who will feel threatened by this mentality and approach you have. It will be obvious to your peers this is the case, and it will make them look bad. When your authority is based on optics and politics, people like you are a threat to the company. the other and only red flag you need is when the company doesnt see people as its most valuable asset, it sees large amounts of funding, and pretty buildings and initial investment as it's most valuable asset. Stay away. and as a last note on this big red flag, again, all the things the companies I worked for did, was cool, fit my skills and interests, experience in school and previous jobs. If I tell you "hey I worked here developing cutting edge technology and heres some metrics of our stats in the market" people would say wow thats cool. And it was cool, and it could have been cool, but people ruined it. It's really about the people, no matter what you are working on. If you don't have high quality people, then you can't have high quality products or services. Period.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mythrwy 9y ago
That's the first thing I thought as well. Never be afraid to fire a bad job. If you don't it will potentially screw your life up the same as bad management can a company. The key for both ends I think though is "Sparingly" and make sure you have other options first. (Unless the situation is just so bad it outweighs lack of options.) Point being, if you are company who is firing a lot of people, or an employee who is firing a lot of jobs, the problem may just be you!
michaelbrooks 9y ago
It's odd, because my first two dev jobs I had to be let go. First time was due to them needing someone of senior skill yet paying for a junior salary and let me go after just 3 weeks, and the other due to money running low and let me go after a year of working for them. This taught me that businesses are out for themselves no matter how nice the people are. It then taught me that if I don't like somewhere, I will just outright look elsewhere and bail. After being let go from my second workplace, I left my next one due to him promising me more money and then going back on it with another deal which sounded great, but actually sucked when I thought about it. He is a really nice guy, but such a shady businessman, so I looked elsewhere and then handed in my notice. The workplace after that one wasn't any better, they wouldn't use GIT, worked on each site whilst live (no dev environment). I hated it, so I took a week off to search elsewhere, found something better and handed my notice in. Also, I tried to push for better practices which the other devs loved, but my manager and boss just wouldn't listen and refused any of my input. There's actually a guy in that workplace who is super nice, but has never been let down like I have so he feels he owes the company everything and won't leave. Whenever he tries, the boss will offer him more pay and then he stays. It's sad, because he deserves so much better. :(
- usmeteora 9y ago
  yup, basically kept getting increases in pay (but not promotions or authority to change the situation I was in for the better) to stay. Don't take the bait. it's an admission that they know you are more valuable than you are being treated, and an acknowledgement that your misery in the situation is not going to change, which is exactly why they are hoping you will be ok with continued frustration in lieu of more money.
  - nsxwolf 9y ago
    That's still a pretty good deal though. Plenty of companies will never budge on money. They'd rather you quit and just find another sucker.
    - usmeteora 9y ago
digitalshankar 9y ago
I'm exactly in that condition, how did you overcome?

by afpx 9y ago

arjie 9y ago

If you don't mind sharing, how did you lose the couple million to these people?

ckaygusu 9y ago
I reckon it is meant in a "opportunity cost" kind of way.
- arjie 9y ago
  Oh, I understand. I'm just wondering how choices were made which left many millions on the table. I didn't face any choices like that when I was younger so I'm curious.
  - daveguy 9y ago
    No offense, but you don't understand. Opportunity cost means specifically you aren't leaving money on the table. It means you are grabbing the pennies when you could be pursuing a more lucrative options. When you are 20 those options don't mean a million dollar deal, they mean not taking the better job that pays about the same but lets you earn 20k more in 2-3 years because you are doing something you love and thriving in it with fewer restarts. That over 20-40 years adds up to "millions in the bank", which is what the original poster said, not millions on the table. A few times not seeing bad management in a startup where you took options rather than a decent wage would do it too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
    - plesiv 9y ago
      OP wrote "an extra couple million in the bank"; since he didn't allude to opportunity costs himself I think there are at least a couple people reading the thread that would want to know what exactly that means. I never heard the phrase used to represent opportunity cost and it's not clear that OP intended it in that way.
    - afpx 9y ago
      You explained it, perfectly. Thanks!
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - arjie 9y ago
      I'm just interested in his story, man. I really don't want to argue about this.
  - afpx 9y ago
    Opportunity costs and the missed investment returns I am now in my mid 40s. I started working in tech in the mid-90s. I was ambitious and mainly only worked for or led tech startups. (I did well for myself, so can't complain too much) When I look back on my career, had I went with my intuition at critical times, instead of what I felt was 'my duty' (or whatever justification I made to deny my intuitive senses), I would clearly be further ahead. In total, I probably wasted several years waiting for people or situations to change for the better, passing up several ultimately better opportunities.
    - shamaku 9y ago
      One could say this about relationships too. Live and learn.
      - pmarreck 9y ago
        Actually it struck me in the original article how it could also apply to any relationship.
    - arjie 9y ago
      Thanks for sharing, man.

usmeteora 9y ago

Thank you for saying this. Honestly, probably could have cut a total of four years of waste out of my life by just knowing the company was not a good fit for me. I used to stay at a place and say "Ok, maybe its me, what can I do to put the most effort in, and maybe that will change how upper level toxic management trickles down and fundamentally changes how politics over rule technology and data based decisions, or hard workers over letting the old boys club stay comfortable" I actually used to believe something I could do would change that or, if I worked hard enough or tip toed around management to make them feel comfortable about their culture and still find time to do the work I felt was important in my own time without offending people who felt comfortable consistently underperforming and had positions of superiority over me, that I would be recognized for my work, work ethic etc. no, that's not the case. Leave and leave fast because while I was the one who eventually chose to leave those companies, those companies are never going to acknowledge how much you are worth, or that they don't deserve you. They care about self preservation and staying there no matter how well you perform is not going to help you get a better job elsewhere. if it's short enough of a time then you don't even have to put it on your resume you worked there. A lesson I wish I knew fresh out of college. of course, all of these things about me are true. There is something you can always do to improve yourself, or change your mindset to help yourself change how you approach frustrating situations to change how a team might respond to a solution or a challenge, and foster a more positive environment. The biggest red flag? When you are constantly challenging yourself to grow and change to meet the needs of the company and find novel ways to contribute in your spare time, and basically having the "how can I rise to the challenge. How can I challenge myself? How can I grow?" mindset when management does not have a "how can we stay open minded and rise to meet the challenge" mindset. It's not just not a good fit for you, but it will be damaging to your career to be at odds with superiors who will feel threatened by this mentality and approach you have. It will be obvious to your peers this is the case, and it will make them look bad. When your authority is based on optics and politics, people like you are a threat to the company. the other and only red flag you need is when the company doesnt see people as its most valuable asset, it sees large amounts of funding, and pretty buildings and initial investment as it's most valuable asset. Stay away. and as a last note on this big red flag, again, all the things the companies I worked for did, was cool, fit my skills and interests, experience in school and previous jobs. If I tell you "hey I worked here developing cutting edge technology and heres some metrics of our stats in the market" people would say wow thats cool. And it was cool, and it could have been cool, but people ruined it. It's really about the people, no matter what you are working on. If you don't have high quality people, then you can't have high quality products or services. Period.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mythrwy 9y ago

That's the first thing I thought as well. Never be afraid to fire a bad job. If you don't it will potentially screw your life up the same as bad management can a company. The key for both ends I think though is "Sparingly" and make sure you have other options first. (Unless the situation is just so bad it outweighs lack of options.) Point being, if you are company who is firing a lot of people, or an employee who is firing a lot of jobs, the problem may just be you!

michaelbrooks 9y ago

It's odd, because my first two dev jobs I had to be let go. First time was due to them needing someone of senior skill yet paying for a junior salary and let me go after just 3 weeks, and the other due to money running low and let me go after a year of working for them. This taught me that businesses are out for themselves no matter how nice the people are. It then taught me that if I don't like somewhere, I will just outright look elsewhere and bail. After being let go from my second workplace, I left my next one due to him promising me more money and then going back on it with another deal which sounded great, but actually sucked when I thought about it. He is a really nice guy, but such a shady businessman, so I looked elsewhere and then handed in my notice. The workplace after that one wasn't any better, they wouldn't use GIT, worked on each site whilst live (no dev environment). I hated it, so I took a week off to search elsewhere, found something better and handed my notice in. Also, I tried to push for better practices which the other devs loved, but my manager and boss just wouldn't listen and refused any of my input. There's actually a guy in that workplace who is super nice, but has never been let down like I have so he feels he owes the company everything and won't leave. Whenever he tries, the boss will offer him more pay and then he stays. It's sad, because he deserves so much better. :(

usmeteora 9y ago
yup, basically kept getting increases in pay (but not promotions or authority to change the situation I was in for the better) to stay. Don't take the bait. it's an admission that they know you are more valuable than you are being treated, and an acknowledgement that your misery in the situation is not going to change, which is exactly why they are hoping you will be ok with continued frustration in lieu of more money.
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  That's still a pretty good deal though. Plenty of companies will never budge on money. They'd rather you quit and just find another sucker.
  - usmeteora 9y ago

digitalshankar 9y ago

I'm exactly in that condition, how did you overcome?