5 ms·

Ask HN: Should I get my degree or not?

22 points by drRoflol 16y ago

Hello hackers! This is almost like a follow-up to this thread http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1438489, but my questions are not quite the same, neither are my goals. I'm 21 years old and live in Norway. For all my life I've loved computers, and everything else with ICs in it. I learned BASIC programming at the age of 10 by editing games and finding out what happened if I did this or that. The last years I've had two years off from school, working a crappy job and getting drunk, while reading tons of computer/programming/security/electronics/math-books. Last fall I went back to school to get a bachelor in informatics. I get straight "A"s, as I already know ten times more about python, C, linked lists, self balancing trees and overflows than the rest of my class. The only thing I need to work with is maths. All while working 50%-110% to be able to afford all my projects, my appartment and steaks on weekends. Five or six years ago I got a new dream; I want to move to Silicon Valley and work on startups, where my skill and creativity can be put to good use. Had I not had a girlfriend, (two cats) and my loving parents I'd have been enjoying California's hot sun right now. Lately I've become tired of working on boring (read: easy) assignments, that takes me a fifth of the time the rest of my class uses, and I still get the highest grades. Because I don't really need to work on things I sometimes forget that I have assignments to do, and that resulted in me only having one of the three exams I was supposed to this spring, because I missed two hand-ins. There is not (at all) many IT-companies in my area, and for me to get a decent job, I'd have to move somewhere else. And that's what I want to do right now. But then I'd have to quit my education. So I was wondering what you guys think about that? Money is not an issue, as long as I can get money for programming I don't care how much. Is it possible to later land a better job, without a degree? Will I be as attractive as the rest of my class in five years, if I work my ass off in crappy jobs, only to build a CV? Really it's HN's fault that I got this idea, all the talk about how useless a degree in CS is didn't help my motivation to work on crap assignments. And to get back to my dream, would moving to Silicon Valley make things easier? Plane-tickets are cheap, I'm ready, I can start looking for work right now. But then again, will I be better off in five (or ten) years from now if I drop out of university and run off chasing the American Dream than if I stay in cold and snowy Norway? (Did I mention that I live in the north of Norway?:/ ) All answers are greatly appreciated!

LaPingvino 16y ago
Mind that it is very hard to move to the US and start a company there if you are not a US citizen.
- drRoflol 16y ago
  I know that, but I don't want to start a company, just get a job, any IT-related job.
  - fbnt 16y ago
    That's naive of you. You can't just fly in the states and interview for a job. Without a green card, you can only stay in US with a tourist visa for 3 months max, or with a student visa if you enroll in some university over there and pay their thousands-dollar tuitions (but you can't get a job), they're very strict on immigration policies. Oddly enough, it might be easier to get a full permit if you start a company, but I guess you'd have to prove that you're investing (bringing in) a substantial amount of money.
  - jcl 16y ago
    If you are planning to look for a job rather than start a company, you really should get your degree. If your classes are not stimulating you enough, perhaps you could try training for programming competitions (TopCoder, Google Code Jam, ACM ICPC). Doing well on those could be a good differentiator on a resume.
    - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
      Or he could pick up short coding jobs online (eg vworker) and start to build a portfolio of successfully applying his coding skills - there's a lot more to being a good prospect for an employer than being a killer coder.
hga 16y ago
Having a degree can make it easier to get a visa to work in the US, to governments credentials count, not real ability. Trying to do the degree you're doing is dangerous, as you've noted (although it does allow you to maintain your lifestyle and keep current in real software development). Is there any possibility that you can change to another major or school where you can get a real CS degree?

drRoflol 16y ago
I'd have to move to get another option. I haven't done any real research into the whole visa-business, but I really should do that soon;) Is it not true that it's easier to get a visa if you already have a company that has agreed to let you work with them?
- hga 16y ago
  I think that's the only way to get a visa that legally allows you to work in the US (ignoring visas associated with going to schools), but being a US native I don't know; as you say, you need to research that. One thing I do know is that the last time I checked this year's quota of H-1B visas is not even close to being used up. Normally they're all used up on the first day which is sometime in April.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  Get a degree. I've been in this situation (from the US to Canada), and having a degree helps. It's easy to have a company say they want you to work for them. The thing is, visa's aren't just approved because a company says they need you. They also need to demonstrate why they need "you" in particular, and why someone local can't help them. Why can't they hire an American, or a Canadian? Why are they hiring a foreigner? These are questions that need to be addressed. Having a degree goes toward helping demonstrate that. To put it another way, I've never seen education shut doors for me. It has, however, given my opportunities I wouldn't have had otherwise.
- unexpected 16y ago
  It will be incredibly hard for you to get a visa without a degree. Damn near impossible, even. You DEFINITELY need a degree, especially if you're a foreigner and want to come to the United States. Very few companies, let alone startups, are going to hire you as an employee if you don't have a degree. My advice would be to get a 4.0, get a degree, and try to go to graduate school at CMU/Boston/San Francisco area. It's not going to be as simple as hopping on a plane and getting hired. You have a whole host of visa issues to work out, and if you do it incorrectly, you could jeopardize your chances of staying here long term forever.

mechanical_fish 16y ago

If your degree in CS is too easy and feels useless study something difficult. If money up front is not an issue you want a university degree. Even if considered as nothing more than a meaningless credential, university degrees pay off over time. More now than ever. But it needn't be a mere piece of paper. If your classes are teaching you things you already know take different classes. When you've studied physics up to field theory, biology through physiology and genetics, know how to build an amplifier from a tableful of chips, understand enough statistics to meaningfully criticize a published article in sociology or epidemiology, know how to use Photoshop to duplicate your favorite fancy website from scratch, understand music theory, have a grasp of linguistics and know some basic accounting come back and ask us what to do next. :)

rythie 16y ago

A degree makes it easier to get a tech. job, at some point you will care about how much you earn and having a degree will affect that. Getting a degree later in life will be much harder, I know from friends who later decided they wanted one. There is really no rush, you should realise you'll be working for the next 45ish years, so a year or two here or there doesn't make much of a difference. Part of getting a degree is showing that you can learn the stuff that your not so good at, like the Math. Your career won't just be programming, in fact you may only spend 5-10 years doing that before moving into management or starting a company which are different skills altogether. Mark Zuckerburg and Bill Gates quit their degrees because there was opportunity cost around the businesses they had created. If they had failed in their businesses they most like would have finished their degrees.

timwiseman 16y ago
I second that. You can have a successful tech career without a degree, I have a close friend doing it now, but not having one will get you instantly excluded from many big organizations. Also, even organizations that will happily hire programmers without a degree may balk at letting them become managers or even more senior level engineers. Even if you think right now you will never want to be a manager, it is probably a good thing to keep open. You may very well change your mind later. If the problem with college is boredom, then perhaps I can suggest two answers which are not mutually exclusive so you can do both: Work with your University to substitute something else for the classes you think won't teach you anything. I know it it is an institution by institution question, but my undergrad college was very accommodating at letting me substitute upper division classes for lower division ones when I balked at taking things like "intro to programming". Take the extra time you have from finishing the homework so fast to work on other productive things. Technical certifications come to mind. I know many people mock them, but they really do open doors when you have to navigate HR departments or hiring managers that have MBAs and no technical skills. Open source software is nanother great one.

nudge 16y ago

"Because I don't really need to work on things I sometimes forget that I have assignments to do, and that resulted in me only having one of the three exams I was supposed to this spring, because I missed two hand-ins." Danger! I got some great advice from a high school teacher once, when I was in a similar situation (questioning the usefulness of the curriculum): You only get to say it's substandard once you ace it. Any time before then, or forever if you drop out, your opinion means nothing. He was completely right. My advice: Stop screwing around thinking all this is beneath you. If it really is, then you should be scoring ridiculously high grades, not missing entire exams. If you're understimulated, ask for higher-level work (masters level?). I think if you turn up in the USA (assuming they let you in) and say you quit because it wasn't any good, they'll assume you're a dilettante and/or lazy. You don't realize it, but you're in an advantageous situation. You've got time, which is more valuable than most things. You can ace your degree while doing extra to demonstrate that you aren't just one of the crowd. What you choose to do in addition to the course is up to you: higher level schoolwork, freelancing, your own software, whatever. Then when you're done you'll have accomplishments to show, as well as the improved self-discipline that comes from doing something that doesn't fascinate you. Put your ass in the chair and turn yourself into something outstanding.

vital101 16y ago
I can't stress this point enough. I know a lot of people here on HN probably felt the same way while they were in college. In my experience, college is what you make of it. I didn't feel challenged, so I took graduate level classes. When that still wasn't cutting it, I started freelancing and helped a friend start a company. Also, if you have such ample free time, do something cool with it. Make a start-up instead of working for one. Once you're out in the "real world", it will become much harder.
xenoterracide 16y ago
"I got some great advice from a high school teacher once, when I was in a similar situation (questioning the usefulness of the curriculum): You only get to say it's substandard once you ace it. Any time before then, or forever if you drop out, your opinion means nothing. He was completely right." I agree to an extent. I've gotten the 2 following questions on exams of mine wrong. Tell me what you think of the fact that I call them substandard even though I'm not acing the tests. Which of the following is a primary color? A) pink B) Yellow C) green D) brown # I don't really remember A and D.. but according to color theory both B and C are primary colors depending on the color wheel you're using. The answer wanted was C I said B. the teacher wouldn't give me credit although I could empirically prove that B was a primary color and was taught as such in grade school. what will i be when the loop exits while ( i < 5 ) { i++; } A. 4 B. 5 C. 6 D. 7 the correct answer to this question is completely dependant on what i is initialized to which was not in the test. I think the question was a little different. I assumed it was initialized to 0. The tested wanted it to be initialized to 1. This teacher gave us credit.

wilhelm 16y ago

Let me tell you a bit about how this works on the other side of the fence. I'm 26, and for the past three years I've worked as department manager in a well-known Norwegian software company, responsible for hiring in my group. I've evaluated a thousand different candidates and hired about a dozen full-time employees from all over the world. In the end, it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from or what education you have. The only things that matter are whether you're excellent at what you do, that you have proven that you're capable of getting stuff done and that you'd fit in with the rest of the team. If you start your own business, none of this is relevant, of course. As long as you ship something a sufficient large number of people are willing to pay for, you're set. But most people work for others, and you probably will too before you've gained a sufficient level of experience to do your own thing. To get a job in the industry, you'll have to prove all of the above, and sufficiently impress myself or my peers elsewhere in the industry to get your inside the door. An education is a great asset to start with. That piece of paper proves that you have at least three years of experience working with relevant subjects. If you've spent your time well and got to know all the industrious people at your university, you might already know someone working where you're applying for a job. That often gets you to the interview. But that piece of paper is far from enough. I need to see that you've done something with your life, that you've _created_ something. It doesn't matter if it's contributions to an open source project, running the servers of your student organization or building your own business on the side. Show me that you care, that you love what you're doing, that you're capable of getting stuff done. If the classes are easy, you'll have plenty of time to do other stuff I'm more impressed by. But do not, under any circumstances, get crappy grades in subjects that are “too easy”. It is _not_ beneath you. You'll do boring and easy tasks even if you're a superstar, and that line of Cs on your transcript is a big, blinking warning sign I cannot ignore. If you don't care enough, you're better off without that piece of paper. Do your own thing, then, but you'll have to work twice as hard to prove yourself. Not that it's impossible, of course. I have no education. Straight out of high school I applied for a five-week internship at my current company. I got good references from another employee, so I did get to the interview, and I did get the internship. And after eight days, I had a permanent job. The pay was horrible, the work was - well, entry-level - but that was fine. As long as I could prove that I was great at what I was doing, I could advance. And so I did. After two years I had the job I really wanted from the start. It was excellent. And after a few more months, I was promoted to be head of my department, despite being the youngest person on the team. Three years later, my peers are finishing their degrees and applying for jobs. I'm very happy with my decisions so far in life, and think I've learned more this way than I would have done at a university. But I've had to work very hard to get here.