14 ms·

For anybody learning to say "no" currently - learn to say "no" gently and kindly. I'm quite bad at this myself. I let people impose stuff on me, and once I have

by manmal 9y ago

For anybody learning to say "no" currently - learn to say "no" gently and kindly. I'm quite bad at this myself. I let people impose stuff on me, and once I have had enough, I have a very rude way of telling people off. One reason for this rudeness is a fear that I will lose something when declining (e.g. a relationship or money), so I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place - I don't want to help, but I feel I should not decline. Most of the times, my rudeness while finally saying "no" is out of place, e.g. when my fiance needs something from me that actually makes sense, or a customer who needs some small task that they would actually pay for. Watching other people (esp my fiance) saying "no" ever so gently has me wondering how easy life could be if I were able to do the same. I'm practicing it, and I think I'm getting better at it. Telling the other person the root cause why you say "no" helps a lot to instill empathy for your situation. The root cause always stems from a need or necessity that you currently have, like need for rest/food/time to think/time to finish this or that task properly/... Even if you are lazy and simply don't want to help right now, remember that this laziness also fulfils one of your needs - probably you need to rest or think. ADDED: Telling people that you just cannot help _right now_ also softens the blow. Also, if it's a customer then delaying might even be more beneficial than just declining - you might need the billable hours in the following week.

deanstag 9y ago
Over the last year, I have been doing some introspection. There have been events where I help my friends a lot. Even while it pushes me into a very frustrated mental state. Mostly because it is hard to say no. Trying to keep up with my general helpful attitude. I have not started consciously to say no yet, but I feel it is very much required. Thank you for your thoughts on this :)
telchar 9y ago
Indeed, this is something I have found to be true as well. To add to your point, when preparing to explain the reason I have to turn down a request I find that it forces me to reevaluate. Sometimes I find that the request is actually reasonable and my real reason for turning it down was only an emotional reaction to feeling otherwise overwhelmed rather than a problem with the request itself. In those cases I may still turn it down but often I find that I can make a compromise at that point that satisfies both parties.
watwut 9y ago
I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.
- skosch 9y ago
  Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness. On top of that, I feel alienated – what, you think you're so important that you can brush me off just like that, and I'm not even worthy being given a reason? Be careful with this one. It's very much possible to state a reason and still express that you won't change your mind on the matter. Although it is more effort, you won't lose people's goodwill.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    It's a confidence thing. You don't need a reason to say No. If somebody thinks you lazy, so be it. But you don't owe anyone a reason. Reasons, as you see them, are often "excuses" to the other person. Mught be even worse. Now you're not just lazy, you also make excuses. Personally I'm bad at this too. I often give reasons/excuses when there's no need and even more often I say No by not saying anything at all and waiting for the thing to pass.
    - manmal 9y ago
      I think there's only a fine line between a reason and an excuse. An excuse is said with a culpable face and body language, while a reason is given neutrally, or maybe extra confident. You give excuses because you feel guilty, or give reasons because you know that you are right. I often force myself to do the latter - keeping an upright posture and a straight face helps a lot if you cannot get rid of the guilt feeling.
      - dasil003 9y ago
lomnakkus 9y ago
Maybe I'm off my rocker, but isn't this exactly what "white lies"[1] were invented for? You don't actually always have to be 100% truthful with everyone. (That will also serve you badly in other social situations, BTW.) [1] Point being that even if people eventually find out that you did tell them a "white lie", they'll actually usually be very understanding because that's the societal norm and they realize that you were just trying to "spare them" from embarassment/awkwardness/losing face/whatever.
- manmal 9y ago
  Very true! It's hard to argue with another person's feelings or needs though. I can always need a bit of resting (who doesn't?), so it's not even a lie if I say "Sorry I feel a bit worn out, so I can't take this right now. I have this and that task to do later and I will have to give my everything to do it properly. I hope you find a solution for your problem." The white lie would be "Sorry my foot hurts, I had an accident yesterday, so I cannot help you. I really wish I could, but you know..." Regarding your addition about white lies - I personally very seldomly lie in a detectable way, because I am very embarrassed if the other one finds out. You are certainly correct that white lies are easily forgiven, but IMO the perception of a "white liar" changes if you find out about the lie - I look at them as cowards, because they are too weak to just say no - does that make sense?
  - hammock 9y ago
    Both of those sound terrible and regardless of your feelings I might tag you as unreliable. Is there a third way?
    - manmal 9y ago
      Ha, that's one of the reasons why I often do what people ask of me instead of saying "no". It might be a problem of my own making - if I would not mark other people as unreliable just for declining, maybe I would not be afraid of other people thinking the same of me. What's the effect of you marking me as unreliable? Will you stop considering me for certain tasks, or will you cease any relationship with me?
groby_b 9y ago
No tip: Say "No, but..." I.e "Can you just take on $LARGE_TASK?" -> "No, I'm currently overbooked. But I can put you in contact with X, who might be able to help" "Can you fix dinner?" -> "No, I need to wrap this up. Maybe we can cook something together after?" It doesn't always work - sometimes a plain no is really called for - but in many cases, it takes off the pressure of flatly declining.
- vldx 9y ago
  This is interesting. Potentially, inserting the "because" keyword could enhance the effect. See [1] "The Mindlessness of Ostensibly Thoughtful Action: The Role of `Placebic` Information in Interpersonal Interaction". > Langer had people request to break in on a line of people waiting to use a busy copy machine on a college campus. The researchers had the people use three different, carefully worded requests to break in line: > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine?” [60% compliance] > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine, because I have to make copies?” [93% compliance] > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine, because I’m in a rush?” [94% compliance] > Using the word “because” and giving a reason resulted in significantly more compliance. This was true even when the reason was not very compelling (“because I have to make copies"). The researchers hypothesize that people go on “automatic” behavior or “mindlessness” as a form of a heuristic, or short-cut. And hearing the word “because” followed by a reason (no matter how lame the reason is), causes us to comply. So, maybe: "Can you just take on $LARGE_TASK?" -> "No, because $RANDOM. But I can put you in contact with X, because $RANDOM" "Can you fix dinner?" -> "No, because $RANDOM. Maybe we can cook something together after?" --- [1] https://jamesclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/copy-machine-study-ellen-langer.pdf https://jamesclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/copy-machi...
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    I've read this research before. It's really very interesting, but I have to wonder where the line is. At what point is using this kind of method just clever, and at what point is it highly manipulative and antisocial?
code777777 9y ago
No is a powerful and liberating word.
notliketherest 9y ago
"when my fiance needs something from me that actually makes sense" Be careful with that, friend :)
suneilp 9y ago
Fear of losing something really does impact social interactions, especially when it comes to asking for what you want, confrontations, or just saying no. I'm working on expressing myself more gently. Yet, sometimes, depending on the situation, I feel being a bit harsher, or more firm, is appropriate.
Bakary 9y ago
One method I found works disturbingly well is to have a busy life or cultivate the appearance of a busy life. It's counter-intuitive for some and obvious for others, but people will value you more if you are less available whereas they will treat your time with increasing contempt if you can be reached and interrupted easily. With this reputation in place, people are much less likely to try to trick you into doing what they want, and more likely to try to get you to do things with them. You have to be a little careful though. If you don't have much social capital to begin with, it could backfire into being ignored altogether. If you overdo it, it may also be counterproductive.
- BrailleHunting 9y ago
  It's an incomplete charade. Feel free to wear noise-canceling headphones, sunglasses and a hat and close the door, the needy jerks will still suckle attention for their time-sucking, futility from all directions... the Mormons, Amway distributors, recruiters, parties, the help me move a couch, help me do this and that, on and on. It's better to be a "grayman:" blend-in by being as boring, generic and forgetable as possible. Disappear, not seek to social climb, because that will only attract different sorts of "stalkers" whom also will have demands.
  - Bakary 9y ago
    It's possible you may not have cultivated the right impression. It took me a while to figure out the psychological aspect of it and achieve the "I'm busy and I have things going on" look, but once I hit the sweet spot, the before and after difference was astounding. When I relocated to another country and a different professional and social circle, it was like I was perceived to be a completely different person, even though my actual behavior and personality had only been slightly adjusted. I essentially molded my behavior on that of people who I myself perceived to be busy and "important". In some cases, I wasn't even consciously aware that I treated some people with more respect and others with less (those who showed the same accommodating behavior I did, or worse) until I critically examined my relationship with them. It worked like a charm. The most encouraging development was that after while I actually became a person with "things going on". Of course, this was only the natural progression of increased confidence, focus and free time.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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da02 9y ago
Just out of curiosity, how did you ask her out the first time? Did she politely say, "No"?
- manmal 9y ago
  You know partners only start saying "no" once the honeymoon period is over ;)
henrik_w 9y ago
Regarding saying no - I really like the way described in "The Power of a Positive No" by William Ury. The main idea in the book can be described as: Yes! No. Yes? When you say no to something, there is a reason. For example, you say no to working late, because you want to spend time with your family. The first yes is the yes you say to being with your family, and it is the reason you then say no to working late. The third yes is the effort to keep the relationship positive, even though you have said no. This formula is a great way of saying no in a positive way, and the whole book is spent explaining the formula and how to apply it. There are many examples throughout the book, and William Ury does a great job teaching the reader how to say no in the best possible way. Even if you don’t normally have a hard time saying no, it is still valuable to read, because the system he lays out is so well thought out. It’s a quick read, and all the examples make it even easier to understand.
wccrawford 9y ago
My wife and her aunt just had a conversation about this recently. It boiled down to this phrase in the end: "That's not going to work for me." Whenever she has to tell someone "no" and knows they're likely to argue, that's the answer she gives. When they ask why, she just repeats it until they realize that the answer is obvious but would be rude to say. Personally, I think it's still rude, but it works for her in ways that being bluntly rude don't. I had a manager who told me for about a year straight that I had to stop telling people "no" so bluntly, but instead offer other suggestions for their problem. She said I was just shutting them down, and they ... felt bad or something. I forget what she said. The point was that I shouldn't just shut them down, but I should try to help them with their problem. This was so hard for me to learn because when I ask a question, I really do want the answer to that question, and it infuriates me when they dance around it or try to guess what question I really want to ask and answer that. Newsflash: That was it. I'm very literal.
- bitJericho 9y ago
  You can say no and still help with a solution.
  - wccrawford 9y ago
    When I ask, "Is it possible to draw 7 perpendicular lines?" I want the answer, "No." If I want to know why, I'll ask why. If I want an alternative, I'll ask for it. Instead, what was happening was that after they asked their question and I answered, "no," they'd walk away and not attempt to get my help again with it afterwards. For the longest time, I thought they were like me and that they were looking to have their question answered. They weren't. They were trying (clumsily) to get help with their problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
    - Xcelerate 9y ago
      > When I ask, "Is it possible to draw 7 perpendicular lines?" I want the answer, "No." Depends. Are we assuming you can't draw in seven dimensional Hilbert space?
mcguire 9y ago
Telling people 'no' is only the smallest part of the problem, and doing it gently isn't always the best way: the alternative to being exploited isn't success; there's a third option, being ignored.

by manmal 9y ago

deanstag 9y ago

Over the last year, I have been doing some introspection. There have been events where I help my friends a lot. Even while it pushes me into a very frustrated mental state. Mostly because it is hard to say no. Trying to keep up with my general helpful attitude. I have not started consciously to say no yet, but I feel it is very much required. Thank you for your thoughts on this :)

telchar 9y ago

Indeed, this is something I have found to be true as well. To add to your point, when preparing to explain the reason I have to turn down a request I find that it forces me to reevaluate. Sometimes I find that the request is actually reasonable and my real reason for turning it down was only an emotional reaction to feeling otherwise overwhelmed rather than a problem with the request itself. In those cases I may still turn it down but often I find that I can make a compromise at that point that satisfies both parties.

watwut 9y ago

I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.

skosch 9y ago
Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness. On top of that, I feel alienated – what, you think you're so important that you can brush me off just like that, and I'm not even worthy being given a reason? Be careful with this one. It's very much possible to state a reason and still express that you won't change your mind on the matter. Although it is more effort, you won't lose people's goodwill.
- Swizec 9y ago
  It's a confidence thing. You don't need a reason to say No. If somebody thinks you lazy, so be it. But you don't owe anyone a reason. Reasons, as you see them, are often "excuses" to the other person. Mught be even worse. Now you're not just lazy, you also make excuses. Personally I'm bad at this too. I often give reasons/excuses when there's no need and even more often I say No by not saying anything at all and waiting for the thing to pass.
  - manmal 9y ago
    I think there's only a fine line between a reason and an excuse. An excuse is said with a culpable face and body language, while a reason is given neutrally, or maybe extra confident. You give excuses because you feel guilty, or give reasons because you know that you are right. I often force myself to do the latter - keeping an upright posture and a straight face helps a lot if you cannot get rid of the guilt feeling.
    - dasil003 9y ago

lomnakkus 9y ago

Maybe I'm off my rocker, but isn't this exactly what "white lies"[1] were invented for? You don't actually always have to be 100% truthful with everyone. (That will also serve you badly in other social situations, BTW.) [1] Point being that even if people eventually find out that you did tell them a "white lie", they'll actually usually be very understanding because that's the societal norm and they realize that you were just trying to "spare them" from embarassment/awkwardness/losing face/whatever.

manmal 9y ago
Very true! It's hard to argue with another person's feelings or needs though. I can always need a bit of resting (who doesn't?), so it's not even a lie if I say "Sorry I feel a bit worn out, so I can't take this right now. I have this and that task to do later and I will have to give my everything to do it properly. I hope you find a solution for your problem." The white lie would be "Sorry my foot hurts, I had an accident yesterday, so I cannot help you. I really wish I could, but you know..." Regarding your addition about white lies - I personally very seldomly lie in a detectable way, because I am very embarrassed if the other one finds out. You are certainly correct that white lies are easily forgiven, but IMO the perception of a "white liar" changes if you find out about the lie - I look at them as cowards, because they are too weak to just say no - does that make sense?
- hammock 9y ago
  Both of those sound terrible and regardless of your feelings I might tag you as unreliable. Is there a third way?
  - manmal 9y ago
    Ha, that's one of the reasons why I often do what people ask of me instead of saying "no". It might be a problem of my own making - if I would not mark other people as unreliable just for declining, maybe I would not be afraid of other people thinking the same of me. What's the effect of you marking me as unreliable? Will you stop considering me for certain tasks, or will you cease any relationship with me?

groby_b 9y ago

No tip: Say "No, but..." I.e "Can you just take on $LARGE_TASK?" -> "No, I'm currently overbooked. But I can put you in contact with X, who might be able to help" "Can you fix dinner?" -> "No, I need to wrap this up. Maybe we can cook something together after?" It doesn't always work - sometimes a plain no is really called for - but in many cases, it takes off the pressure of flatly declining.

vldx 9y ago
This is interesting. Potentially, inserting the "because" keyword could enhance the effect. See [1] "The Mindlessness of Ostensibly Thoughtful Action: The Role of `Placebic` Information in Interpersonal Interaction". > Langer had people request to break in on a line of people waiting to use a busy copy machine on a college campus. The researchers had the people use three different, carefully worded requests to break in line: > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine?” [60% compliance] > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine, because I have to make copies?” [93% compliance] > “Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the xerox machine, because I’m in a rush?” [94% compliance] > Using the word “because” and giving a reason resulted in significantly more compliance. This was true even when the reason was not very compelling (“because I have to make copies"). The researchers hypothesize that people go on “automatic” behavior or “mindlessness” as a form of a heuristic, or short-cut. And hearing the word “because” followed by a reason (no matter how lame the reason is), causes us to comply. So, maybe: "Can you just take on $LARGE_TASK?" -> "No, because $RANDOM. But I can put you in contact with X, because $RANDOM" "Can you fix dinner?" -> "No, because $RANDOM. Maybe we can cook something together after?" --- [1] https://jamesclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/copy-machine-study-ellen-langer.pdf https://jamesclear.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/copy-machi...
- 52-6F-62 9y ago
  I've read this research before. It's really very interesting, but I have to wonder where the line is. At what point is using this kind of method just clever, and at what point is it highly manipulative and antisocial?

code777777 9y ago

No is a powerful and liberating word.

notliketherest 9y ago

"when my fiance needs something from me that actually makes sense" Be careful with that, friend :)

suneilp 9y ago

Fear of losing something really does impact social interactions, especially when it comes to asking for what you want, confrontations, or just saying no. I'm working on expressing myself more gently. Yet, sometimes, depending on the situation, I feel being a bit harsher, or more firm, is appropriate.

Bakary 9y ago

One method I found works disturbingly well is to have a busy life or cultivate the appearance of a busy life. It's counter-intuitive for some and obvious for others, but people will value you more if you are less available whereas they will treat your time with increasing contempt if you can be reached and interrupted easily. With this reputation in place, people are much less likely to try to trick you into doing what they want, and more likely to try to get you to do things with them. You have to be a little careful though. If you don't have much social capital to begin with, it could backfire into being ignored altogether. If you overdo it, it may also be counterproductive.

BrailleHunting 9y ago
It's an incomplete charade. Feel free to wear noise-canceling headphones, sunglasses and a hat and close the door, the needy jerks will still suckle attention for their time-sucking, futility from all directions... the Mormons, Amway distributors, recruiters, parties, the help me move a couch, help me do this and that, on and on. It's better to be a "grayman:" blend-in by being as boring, generic and forgetable as possible. Disappear, not seek to social climb, because that will only attract different sorts of "stalkers" whom also will have demands.
- Bakary 9y ago
  It's possible you may not have cultivated the right impression. It took me a while to figure out the psychological aspect of it and achieve the "I'm busy and I have things going on" look, but once I hit the sweet spot, the before and after difference was astounding. When I relocated to another country and a different professional and social circle, it was like I was perceived to be a completely different person, even though my actual behavior and personality had only been slightly adjusted. I essentially molded my behavior on that of people who I myself perceived to be busy and "important". In some cases, I wasn't even consciously aware that I treated some people with more respect and others with less (those who showed the same accommodating behavior I did, or worse) until I critically examined my relationship with them. It worked like a charm. The most encouraging development was that after while I actually became a person with "things going on". Of course, this was only the natural progression of increased confidence, focus and free time.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

da02 9y ago

Just out of curiosity, how did you ask her out the first time? Did she politely say, "No"?

manmal 9y ago
You know partners only start saying "no" once the honeymoon period is over ;)

henrik_w 9y ago

Regarding saying no - I really like the way described in "The Power of a Positive No" by William Ury. The main idea in the book can be described as: Yes! No. Yes? When you say no to something, there is a reason. For example, you say no to working late, because you want to spend time with your family. The first yes is the yes you say to being with your family, and it is the reason you then say no to working late. The third yes is the effort to keep the relationship positive, even though you have said no. This formula is a great way of saying no in a positive way, and the whole book is spent explaining the formula and how to apply it. There are many examples throughout the book, and William Ury does a great job teaching the reader how to say no in the best possible way. Even if you don’t normally have a hard time saying no, it is still valuable to read, because the system he lays out is so well thought out. It’s a quick read, and all the examples make it even easier to understand.

wccrawford 9y ago

My wife and her aunt just had a conversation about this recently. It boiled down to this phrase in the end: "That's not going to work for me." Whenever she has to tell someone "no" and knows they're likely to argue, that's the answer she gives. When they ask why, she just repeats it until they realize that the answer is obvious but would be rude to say. Personally, I think it's still rude, but it works for her in ways that being bluntly rude don't. I had a manager who told me for about a year straight that I had to stop telling people "no" so bluntly, but instead offer other suggestions for their problem. She said I was just shutting them down, and they ... felt bad or something. I forget what she said. The point was that I shouldn't just shut them down, but I should try to help them with their problem. This was so hard for me to learn because when I ask a question, I really do want the answer to that question, and it infuriates me when they dance around it or try to guess what question I really want to ask and answer that. Newsflash: That was it. I'm very literal.

bitJericho 9y ago
You can say no and still help with a solution.
- wccrawford 9y ago
  When I ask, "Is it possible to draw 7 perpendicular lines?" I want the answer, "No." If I want to know why, I'll ask why. If I want an alternative, I'll ask for it. Instead, what was happening was that after they asked their question and I answered, "no," they'd walk away and not attempt to get my help again with it afterwards. For the longest time, I thought they were like me and that they were looking to have their question answered. They weren't. They were trying (clumsily) to get help with their problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
  - Xcelerate 9y ago
    > When I ask, "Is it possible to draw 7 perpendicular lines?" I want the answer, "No." Depends. Are we assuming you can't draw in seven dimensional Hilbert space?

mcguire 9y ago

Telling people 'no' is only the smallest part of the problem, and doing it gently isn't always the best way: the alternative to being exploited isn't success; there's a third option, being ignored.