3 ms·

I think it might be appropriate to do a brief introduction for western readers about Japanese (Shintoist+Budist) philosophy first. If you're an old school manga

I think it might be appropriate to do a brief introduction for western readers about Japanese (Shintoist+Budist) philosophy first. If you're an old school manga/anime consumer you probably know a bit about it indirectly with Studio Ghibli movies and others. In most modern philosophy spirits are assigned to humans (with exceptions), while in Japan everything in nature has a spirit/energy [1]. This makes the concept of nature different between our cultures, animals even more different so the concept of a robot is really different. So a Ghost in the shell for us westerns is kind of obvious; a robot has nothing, it is a shell by default, and you can add a human consciousness which is just a group of thoughts like you'd add a different program. However for the Japanese culture where everything has vital energy this is not entirely the same concept. An empty shell/robot is a void much larger than what a robot is for us and a normal, working robot in the real world has something making it move. Heck, even "electricity" includes the word "気" (spirit/energy). Of course I am not good at explaining all of this and just know it because I like learning about it. But I do think that there are important cultural differences when watching this movie and many details are lost from a western point of view. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kami

taneq 9y ago
> So a Ghost in the shell for us westerns is kind of obvious; a robot has nothing, it is a shell by default, and you can add a human consciousness. I don't think it's obvious at all. If you can add a human consciousness to a(n entirely non-human-biological) robot, then that "human consciousness" is no different in nature to the robot's software. A difference in degree, certainly, but not of kind. Yet most westerners would claim a difference in kind between software and a "person". Point taken, though, about the way the film's interpretation changes depending on the cultural mindset of the watcher. I'll do some reading. :)
- franciscop 9y ago
  Ah sorry, I was trying to make emphasis on the part that the robot is an empty shell for us and not specially on human consciousness being easy to swap/just software (for which I agree with you). Edit: After thinking and reading about it, I think that is actually the opposite in the other direction. What might shock us is the concept of the spirit being transfered, while for Shintoism that is not such a shocking concept since they are not so concerned with the afterlife and their spirit will just join nature: "The afterlife, and belief, are not major concerns in Shinto; the emphasis is on fitting into this world instead of preparing for the next, and on ritual and observance rather than on faith." - interesting read: https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-buddhism/ https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-buddhis...
- hashhar 9y ago
  This reminds me of the conclusion of the game SOMA. You can find some interesting discussion here. https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/3pa4fu/philosophy_in_soma/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/3pa4fu/philosophy_in_...
sdrothrock 9y ago
> Heck, even "electricity" includes the word "気" (spirit/energy). People say this as if it means something profound, but it really doesn't. It's just energy. There's no Japanese belief that electricity is powered by little spirits or anything like you try to imply.
- franciscop 9y ago
  I just know the basics of Japanese, so I'll trust you on that, I assumed that as many words have lost their original meaning nowadays. But that's the thing, from what I know it's not split so hard in spirits vs energy and those two are closer concepts in Japanese philosophy. In western philosophies we have a body and spirit, where the body provides the energy to move it and the spirit the will. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) in Japanese philosophy that energy and will to move is closer together, it is the spirit the one that provides the strength to move the body (talking about philosophy, not biology). If I recall correctly even some body sickness are attributed at a weak spirit.
  - takeda 9y ago
    I guess this explains a bit the Spirit Bomb Goku sometimes used in the Dragon Ball Z. Seems like in Japanese culture spirit and energy is the same thing?
    - hosh 9y ago
      That is generally true of any traditional, shamanic practices. DragonBallZ owes more to Chinese Taoist alchemy than it does with Shintoism, but there are going to be some shared similarities. Traditional Chinese Medicine, for example, is a healing modality that was modernized. It retained some of that animist leaning, but lost a lot too in the modernization. I'd say, if you talk with most shamans, there will be some understanding of spirit being energy, though often in the sense that energy is not dead, without intelligence or consciousness. A lot of this has to do with this being a lived experience that is oddly shared across cultures. You might find this, say, talking with an Australian Aboriginal shaman with one of the surviving shamans in say, Poland. Different words, different perspectives of the same underlying experiences.
nickbauman 9y ago
It's called animism (a modern term for something that predates what we call "religion"). In prehistoric and hunter / gatherer civilizations, this was how we thought about the world. In many ways this mindset was the precursor to science. We employed what's termed as sympathetic magic where we used our pattern-recognition capabilities to try to control nature. If we were experiencing a drought, for example, we might put blue stones in our pastures because they looked like raindrops, hoping this would bring rain. This is crazy of course but it set the stage for trial and error which eventually enabled us to learn things empirically. Shintoism has held onto this vestige of proto-science. It's amazing and beautiful.
hosh 9y ago
> In most modern philosophy spirits are assigned to humans (with exceptions), while in Japan everything in nature has a spirit/energy [1]. This makes the concept of nature different between our cultures, animals even more different so the concept of a robot is really different. I'd argue that is a case of modernity, and not simply a difference in culture. That animist leaning is present everywhere indigenous shamanism is present, which means it is pretty much present everywhere. While it isn't normative or mainstream, it's present in the Americas and in Europe. The discussion is less about Japanese cultural notions of kami and more about the tensions between modernity and tradition. There is also another line of exploration that no one has good answer for: what is the role of a post-tribal, _modern_ shaman?
observation 9y ago
Everybody should watch Mushishi! Few pieces of media manage evoke wonder. It's beautifully drawn and philosophical. http://www.japanator.com/ul/32429-annotated-anime-mushishi-episode-4/mushi3-620x.jpg http://www.japanator.com/ul/32429-annotated-anime-mushishi-e... https://myanimelist.net/anime/457/Mushishi https://myanimelist.net/anime/457/Mushishi
cr0sh 9y ago
Another good read in this vein is Masahiro Mori's "The Buddha in the Robot: A Robot Engineer's Thoughts on Science and Religion": https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Buddha_in_the_robot.html?id=x8IlAQAAMAAJ https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Buddha_in_the_robot...

taneq 9y ago

> So a Ghost in the shell for us westerns is kind of obvious; a robot has nothing, it is a shell by default, and you can add a human consciousness. I don't think it's obvious at all. If you can add a human consciousness to a(n entirely non-human-biological) robot, then that "human consciousness" is no different in nature to the robot's software. A difference in degree, certainly, but not of kind. Yet most westerners would claim a difference in kind between software and a "person". Point taken, though, about the way the film's interpretation changes depending on the cultural mindset of the watcher. I'll do some reading. :)

franciscop 9y ago
Ah sorry, I was trying to make emphasis on the part that the robot is an empty shell for us and not specially on human consciousness being easy to swap/just software (for which I agree with you). Edit: After thinking and reading about it, I think that is actually the opposite in the other direction. What might shock us is the concept of the spirit being transfered, while for Shintoism that is not such a shocking concept since they are not so concerned with the afterlife and their spirit will just join nature: "The afterlife, and belief, are not major concerns in Shinto; the emphasis is on fitting into this world instead of preparing for the next, and on ritual and observance rather than on faith." - interesting read: https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-buddhism/ https://www.japanspecialist.co.uk/travel-tips/shinto-buddhis...
hashhar 9y ago
This reminds me of the conclusion of the game SOMA. You can find some interesting discussion here. https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/3pa4fu/philosophy_in_soma/ https://www.reddit.com/r/soma/comments/3pa4fu/philosophy_in_...

sdrothrock 9y ago

> Heck, even "electricity" includes the word "気" (spirit/energy). People say this as if it means something profound, but it really doesn't. It's just energy. There's no Japanese belief that electricity is powered by little spirits or anything like you try to imply.

franciscop 9y ago
I just know the basics of Japanese, so I'll trust you on that, I assumed that as many words have lost their original meaning nowadays. But that's the thing, from what I know it's not split so hard in spirits vs energy and those two are closer concepts in Japanese philosophy. In western philosophies we have a body and spirit, where the body provides the energy to move it and the spirit the will. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) in Japanese philosophy that energy and will to move is closer together, it is the spirit the one that provides the strength to move the body (talking about philosophy, not biology). If I recall correctly even some body sickness are attributed at a weak spirit.
- takeda 9y ago
  I guess this explains a bit the Spirit Bomb Goku sometimes used in the Dragon Ball Z. Seems like in Japanese culture spirit and energy is the same thing?
  - hosh 9y ago
    That is generally true of any traditional, shamanic practices. DragonBallZ owes more to Chinese Taoist alchemy than it does with Shintoism, but there are going to be some shared similarities. Traditional Chinese Medicine, for example, is a healing modality that was modernized. It retained some of that animist leaning, but lost a lot too in the modernization. I'd say, if you talk with most shamans, there will be some understanding of spirit being energy, though often in the sense that energy is not dead, without intelligence or consciousness. A lot of this has to do with this being a lived experience that is oddly shared across cultures. You might find this, say, talking with an Australian Aboriginal shaman with one of the surviving shamans in say, Poland. Different words, different perspectives of the same underlying experiences.

nickbauman 9y ago

It's called animism (a modern term for something that predates what we call "religion"). In prehistoric and hunter / gatherer civilizations, this was how we thought about the world. In many ways this mindset was the precursor to science. We employed what's termed as sympathetic magic where we used our pattern-recognition capabilities to try to control nature. If we were experiencing a drought, for example, we might put blue stones in our pastures because they looked like raindrops, hoping this would bring rain. This is crazy of course but it set the stage for trial and error which eventually enabled us to learn things empirically. Shintoism has held onto this vestige of proto-science. It's amazing and beautiful.

hosh 9y ago

> In most modern philosophy spirits are assigned to humans (with exceptions), while in Japan everything in nature has a spirit/energy [1]. This makes the concept of nature different between our cultures, animals even more different so the concept of a robot is really different. I'd argue that is a case of modernity, and not simply a difference in culture. That animist leaning is present everywhere indigenous shamanism is present, which means it is pretty much present everywhere. While it isn't normative or mainstream, it's present in the Americas and in Europe. The discussion is less about Japanese cultural notions of kami and more about the tensions between modernity and tradition. There is also another line of exploration that no one has good answer for: what is the role of a post-tribal, _modern_ shaman?

observation 9y ago

Everybody should watch Mushishi! Few pieces of media manage evoke wonder. It's beautifully drawn and philosophical. http://www.japanator.com/ul/32429-annotated-anime-mushishi-episode-4/mushi3-620x.jpg http://www.japanator.com/ul/32429-annotated-anime-mushishi-e... https://myanimelist.net/anime/457/Mushishi https://myanimelist.net/anime/457/Mushishi

cr0sh 9y ago

Another good read in this vein is Masahiro Mori's "The Buddha in the Robot: A Robot Engineer's Thoughts on Science and Religion": https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Buddha_in_the_robot.html?id=x8IlAQAAMAAJ https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Buddha_in_the_robot...