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Ancient Horse DNA Shows Scythian Warriors Were Adept Domesticators

30 points by gwern 9y ago

gricardo99 9y ago
The Dan Carlin podcast series "Kings of Kings"[1] colorfully describes the Scythians, and many other groups. Fascinating stuff. 1 - http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-56-kings-kings/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-56-kings-k...
- upvotinglurker 9y ago
  His series on Genghis Khan also describes a similar culture.
sillyquiet 9y ago
The descriptions of contemporary or near-contemporary historians like Herodotus when describing the habits of their country's enemies must be taken with a grain of salt, e.g., the 'slave-blinding' and 'blood-drinking'.
- abrowne 9y ago
  Even calling them "historians" makes them (and their methods) seem more similar to modern historians(') than they were.
mirimir 9y ago
> In modern horses, the Y chromosomes in stallions are almost identical, reflecting the breeding technique of using a single stallion with desired characteristics to father many offspring. Could that be true? I mean, could all modern domesticated stallions have "almost identical" Y chromosomes? Edit: Perhaps over generalizing? > ... Lippold based his findings on the results of a 2004 Swedish study that showed a particular DNA sequence in the Y chromosomes of 52 modern-day stallions representing 15 different breeds was absolutely identical. > This doesn't mean modern stallions have no diversity of all, Lippold cautioned. The researchers only studied one part of the Y chromosome ... http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28083/researchers-examine-ancient-stallions-genetic-diversity http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28083/researchers-examine-a...
- searine 9y ago
  Domestication leads to heavy inbreeding and a depression in genetic diversity genome-wide. Furthermore, the Y chromosome recombines at a much slower rate compared to the autosome, resulting in less diversity. This should be balanced by a higher mutation rate, but again, domestication depresses that. So no, it's not really surprising to see this.
  - upvotinglurker 9y ago
    (Source: ~25 years experience working with horses as a hobby) At least in the US, inbreeding is indeed extensive. The vast majority of male horses are castrated at a young age, since intact males are considered more difficult to train and control (therefore more dangerous to humans) and more expensive to house than castrated males or intact females. Therefore, a small percentage of males end up fathering all the offspring. There are American Quarter Horse stallions with literally thousands of offspring (sometimes to their detriment, as when a popular stallion was belatedly discovered to carry a recessive genetic disease[0]). It's therefore interesting to a modern horse person to read that "the Scythians maintained the natural herd structure" (a "harem" structure in which one male tends to sexually dominate several females - but several, not thousands, and not generally for his entire life). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressive_(horse) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressive_(horse)
    - searine 9y ago
      Scythians probably put a lot more value on an slow ugly horse that would live 30 years rather than a pretty horse that could sprint but died when it saw its shadow.
      - upvotinglurker 9y ago
        If you're trying to malign quarter horses, be aware that many can't even sprint anymore (they're being bred more for "western pleasure" e.g. extremely slow, mechanical movements ;-)
upvotinglurker 9y ago
You can see examples of Scythian-style horse acrobatics and archery (by modern Mongolians): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvHJ5H73cU&t=90s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvHJ5H73cU&t=90s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnNCDT-j1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnNCDT-j1o (edited to separate links)
- jumasheff 9y ago
  ...and by modern Kyrgyzs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LftDIksFNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LftDIksFNQ

30 points by gwern 9y ago

The Dan Carlin podcast series "Kings of Kings"[1] colorfully describes the Scythians, and many other groups. Fascinating stuff. 1 - http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-56-kings-kings/ http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-56-kings-k...

upvotinglurker 9y ago
His series on Genghis Khan also describes a similar culture.

sillyquiet 9y ago

The descriptions of contemporary or near-contemporary historians like Herodotus when describing the habits of their country's enemies must be taken with a grain of salt, e.g., the 'slave-blinding' and 'blood-drinking'.

abrowne 9y ago
Even calling them "historians" makes them (and their methods) seem more similar to modern historians(') than they were.

mirimir 9y ago

> In modern horses, the Y chromosomes in stallions are almost identical, reflecting the breeding technique of using a single stallion with desired characteristics to father many offspring. Could that be true? I mean, could all modern domesticated stallions have "almost identical" Y chromosomes? Edit: Perhaps over generalizing? > ... Lippold based his findings on the results of a 2004 Swedish study that showed a particular DNA sequence in the Y chromosomes of 52 modern-day stallions representing 15 different breeds was absolutely identical. > This doesn't mean modern stallions have no diversity of all, Lippold cautioned. The researchers only studied one part of the Y chromosome ... http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28083/researchers-examine-ancient-stallions-genetic-diversity http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28083/researchers-examine-a...

searine 9y ago
Domestication leads to heavy inbreeding and a depression in genetic diversity genome-wide. Furthermore, the Y chromosome recombines at a much slower rate compared to the autosome, resulting in less diversity. This should be balanced by a higher mutation rate, but again, domestication depresses that. So no, it's not really surprising to see this.
- upvotinglurker 9y ago
  (Source: ~25 years experience working with horses as a hobby) At least in the US, inbreeding is indeed extensive. The vast majority of male horses are castrated at a young age, since intact males are considered more difficult to train and control (therefore more dangerous to humans) and more expensive to house than castrated males or intact females. Therefore, a small percentage of males end up fathering all the offspring. There are American Quarter Horse stallions with literally thousands of offspring (sometimes to their detriment, as when a popular stallion was belatedly discovered to carry a recessive genetic disease[0]). It's therefore interesting to a modern horse person to read that "the Scythians maintained the natural herd structure" (a "harem" structure in which one male tends to sexually dominate several females - but several, not thousands, and not generally for his entire life). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressive_(horse) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressive_(horse)
  - searine 9y ago
    Scythians probably put a lot more value on an slow ugly horse that would live 30 years rather than a pretty horse that could sprint but died when it saw its shadow.
    - upvotinglurker 9y ago
      If you're trying to malign quarter horses, be aware that many can't even sprint anymore (they're being bred more for "western pleasure" e.g. extremely slow, mechanical movements ;-)

upvotinglurker 9y ago

You can see examples of Scythian-style horse acrobatics and archery (by modern Mongolians): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvHJ5H73cU&t=90s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvHJ5H73cU&t=90s * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnNCDT-j1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stnNCDT-j1o (edited to separate links)

jumasheff 9y ago
...and by modern Kyrgyzs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LftDIksFNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LftDIksFNQ