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> The new tracking system was created in consultation with “incredibly smart people” to ensure it's not invasive. He described the program as “secure and privac

> The new tracking system was created in consultation with “incredibly smart people” to ensure it's not invasive. He described the program as “secure and privacy safe.” It's not "incredibly smart people" you need; it's "highly ethical people".

iDemonix 9y ago
Very important point. In my workplace, often the smartest engineers are so focused on doing smart things, they forget that the data they're dealing with belongs to, or identifies, people. Got to make those yearly objectives/appraisals count though.
- keithpeter 9y ago
  Perhaps a more subtle thing for them to keep in mind: many people carry out a mix of card/online and cash transactions. Only the card/online transactions will be captured. The Panopticon's record will show an extremely unhealthy and meagre diet for me for instance because I buy fresh fruit/veg at markets - cash only. It strikes me that data censored through transaction modality and then used to make marketing decisions may result in poor results.
  - eternalban 9y ago
    The Panopticon central says 'cash is going bye bye sunshine'.
    - keithpeter 9y ago
      http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2015/q3prerelease_1.pdf http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarte... Cash will be around for a fair time yet, but you have a point for any form of regular or recurrent expenditure. As the above pdf explains 'hoarding' of notes as a store of value seems strangely popular...
  - bbcbasic 9y ago
    If they can still make predictions based on a partial dataset it's better than nothing and probably profitable to use. Chuck some linear regression or similar at it.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      Also in this particular example, they could probably compute that your junk food shopping doesn't account for your daily calories intake.
hagakure0c 9y ago
Sooner or later people will start to revolt and either go back to use semi-anonymous cash or truly anonymous payment systems like bitcoin. Google and advertising will then be in the dark.
- tintor 9y ago
  Bitcoin is not "truly anonymous" by default. All transactions are public and can be traced back to you, unless you use non-logging bitcoin mixers for every single transaction.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    No, you just mix a bunch, and then use them. But you must use VPNs and/or Tor, to avoid linkage by IP address. If you want compartmentalization, just mix into separate wallets. And if you want strong compartmentalization, do everything via Tor, and put those wallets in separate VMs (such as Whonix).
    - hvidgaard 9y ago
      Indeed, Bitcoin can be anonymous if there is enough critical mass. But that requires far more involment than the average person is willing to do. Cash is easy and simple.
- Freak_NL 9y ago
  Only if we don't all but lose the option of cash before then. The war on cash is being waged, more in some countries than others, but is a political trend to envision a future without cash.
- codedokode 9y ago
  Would not it be easier to make a law forbidding transferring personal information without a person's consent? Not opt-out, but rather opt-in scheme. Companies like Google just exploit a lack of regulation.
  - 9y ago
halflings 9y ago
What does that mean? The point behind that quote is that they're very aware of the privacy implications and took some of their best engineers to make sure things are well implemented and secure. The product in itself is clearly described here. It's not up to individual employees to be "trusted" with this type of data, as it must be encrypted at rest and all accesses audited etc.
mtgx 9y ago
Which is why I'm very worried about DeepMind's secret ethical board, if one even exists: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/26/google-deepmind-ai-ethics-board https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/26/google-de... Why would it have to be secret if it's supposed to make people trust Google's AI more? And what are they hiding? Is President Duterte or a Saudi prince on that ethics panel? (serious question - we just don't know right now)
- speedplane 9y ago
  It needs to be secret to facilitate open discussion. That said, there should be a public component to it. For instance, they should publish their findings when they come to consensus.
659087 9y ago
Agreeing to work on mass surveillance/manipulation tech isn't something highly ethical people do.

iDemonix 9y ago

Very important point. In my workplace, often the smartest engineers are so focused on doing smart things, they forget that the data they're dealing with belongs to, or identifies, people. Got to make those yearly objectives/appraisals count though.

keithpeter 9y ago
Perhaps a more subtle thing for them to keep in mind: many people carry out a mix of card/online and cash transactions. Only the card/online transactions will be captured. The Panopticon's record will show an extremely unhealthy and meagre diet for me for instance because I buy fresh fruit/veg at markets - cash only. It strikes me that data censored through transaction modality and then used to make marketing decisions may result in poor results.
- eternalban 9y ago
  The Panopticon central says 'cash is going bye bye sunshine'.
  - keithpeter 9y ago
    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2015/q3prerelease_1.pdf http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarte... Cash will be around for a fair time yet, but you have a point for any form of regular or recurrent expenditure. As the above pdf explains 'hoarding' of notes as a store of value seems strangely popular...
- bbcbasic 9y ago
  If they can still make predictions based on a partial dataset it's better than nothing and probably profitable to use. Chuck some linear regression or similar at it.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    Also in this particular example, they could probably compute that your junk food shopping doesn't account for your daily calories intake.

hagakure0c 9y ago

Sooner or later people will start to revolt and either go back to use semi-anonymous cash or truly anonymous payment systems like bitcoin. Google and advertising will then be in the dark.

tintor 9y ago
Bitcoin is not "truly anonymous" by default. All transactions are public and can be traced back to you, unless you use non-logging bitcoin mixers for every single transaction.
- mirimir 9y ago
  No, you just mix a bunch, and then use them. But you must use VPNs and/or Tor, to avoid linkage by IP address. If you want compartmentalization, just mix into separate wallets. And if you want strong compartmentalization, do everything via Tor, and put those wallets in separate VMs (such as Whonix).
  - hvidgaard 9y ago
    Indeed, Bitcoin can be anonymous if there is enough critical mass. But that requires far more involment than the average person is willing to do. Cash is easy and simple.
Freak_NL 9y ago
Only if we don't all but lose the option of cash before then. The war on cash is being waged, more in some countries than others, but is a political trend to envision a future without cash.
codedokode 9y ago
Would not it be easier to make a law forbidding transferring personal information without a person's consent? Not opt-out, but rather opt-in scheme. Companies like Google just exploit a lack of regulation.
- 9y ago

halflings 9y ago

What does that mean? The point behind that quote is that they're very aware of the privacy implications and took some of their best engineers to make sure things are well implemented and secure. The product in itself is clearly described here. It's not up to individual employees to be "trusted" with this type of data, as it must be encrypted at rest and all accesses audited etc.

mtgx 9y ago

Which is why I'm very worried about DeepMind's secret ethical board, if one even exists: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/26/google-deepmind-ai-ethics-board https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/26/google-de... Why would it have to be secret if it's supposed to make people trust Google's AI more? And what are they hiding? Is President Duterte or a Saudi prince on that ethics panel? (serious question - we just don't know right now)

speedplane 9y ago
It needs to be secret to facilitate open discussion. That said, there should be a public component to it. For instance, they should publish their findings when they come to consensus.

659087 9y ago

Agreeing to work on mass surveillance/manipulation tech isn't something highly ethical people do.