6 ms·

It is extremely disappointing that Uber is considered a crown jewel of Silicon Valley The common refrain I hear is "they're better than taxis" and more and mor

It is extremely disappointing that Uber is considered a crown jewel of Silicon Valley The common refrain I hear is "they're better than taxis" and more and more evidence is mounting against them (at the corporate level) that suggests: no, they really aren't.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
I think you're both right and wrong. Uber is better than taxis for riders, and worse than taxis (in some ways) for drivers. Also consider that some Uber drivers couldn't realistically become taxi drivers in their spare time, and perhaps some of them would prefer to be underpaid by Uber rather than not working at all.
- metamet 9y ago
  Has it always been that way though? I remember when they first launched in SF, and I remember drivers being pretty excited about how much they were making driving. I remember talking to some folks who also drove taxi, mentioning that Uber paid them substantially more.
  - kirykl 9y ago
    Driver quality correlates with price/earnings per mile on an S-Curve. Per mile earnings and per mile prices have both dropped.
  - cavanasm 9y ago
    Part of this is that Uber was / is building a rider / driver base, and to do so, they accept losses on every ride. They were paying drivers more money than they were collecting in fares. It was an attempt to claim market share and drive competitors out of business (which hasn't quite worked thus far) so they could increase the prices later when they had price control power. Uber's existence is all based around investors dumping money faster than they burn it in operating costs (without ever turning a profit).
- bdcravens 9y ago
  > some Uber drivers couldn't realistically become taxi drivers See my response to parent comment. I've taken some Ubers that were undoubtedly driven by drivers who were unqualified to carry passengers.
- gaius 9y ago
  worse than taxis (in some ways) for drivers ... and taxpayers. Someone else pays for the upkeep of those roads, without which their business could not exist. In the UK, someone else pays for the healthcare of their drivers, as they dodge Employer's NI. Etc etc. The entire business model of "disruption" is pocketing what everyone else pays for the dependencies and externalities.
  - cgag 9y ago
    what about uber/lyft is worse for the roads than taxis?
    - cozzyd 9y ago
      Taxis often have extra taxes/fees/tolls that theoretically go into maintenance (though I'm sure they may not in practice).
    - gaius 9y ago
      The fact that they contribute so little to the public purse: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/londons-black-cab-drivers-consider-court-action-against-uber https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/londons-b...
    - mrbabbage 9y ago
      At least in San Francisco, there's far more of them. The extra wear and tear on the roads ends up as a road repair bill that taxpayers pick up. If the TNCs were a 1:1 replacement for traditional taxis, this wouldn't be a legitimate argument, but the evidence out there suggests that TNCs have grown the size of the car hail market at the expense of off-peak transit, so the TNCs really are putting more cars on the streets.
      - nradov 9y ago
        Road wear is exponentially proportional to vehicle weight. Almost all of the wear is caused by large commercial trucks and other heavy vehicles such as buses. Passenger cars cause very little road wear. TNC drivers are mostly using lighter vehicles. https://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/ https://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/
- ehsankia 9y ago
  Right, when we say Uber is better than Taxis, we generally mean "the Uber model is better than Taxis". We can exchange Uber with Lyft or any other company that works with thath model. It's about the general environment that ride sharing brings. Things like how using an app makes hailing a ride easier, how having a rating system forces drivers and riders to behave better, how mobile payment removes the awkwardness of exchanging money, etc. There's nothing specific to Uber in there, and when it does come to specifics, Uber is pretty awful as we've seen.
  - semi-extrinsic 9y ago
    > There's nothing specific to Uber in there Even further, there's nothing specific to the Uber model in there. Every one of those things could be implemented exactly the same way by an ordinary cab company. In fact, many cab companies worldwide have already implemented both the first and the third one. The only unique thing about the Uber model as opposed to regular cabs is that it's priced lower through a combination of semi-illegal dirty tricks and setting unsustainably low (or negative) margins in order to maintain growth and capture the market.
    - creepydata 9y ago
      The good thing about Uber is that I can get an Uber no matter where in the world I am (assuming that town has Uber). I don't have to know what cab companies are around or what apps I have to download.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        That's about the only thing that's actually good about Uber. But even then, Europe has at least two competing taxi aggregator apps now, so this advantage is bound to disappear.
- Terretta 9y ago
  > "Uber is better than taxis for riders" Not in NYC. First, download Curb, add a payment option. Then... 1. Hail a cab, any cab, on street, get in immediately, no wait. 2. While riding, key cab code into app. Every cab is in same system. 3. At destination, simply exit cab. Apple Pay or regular cc pay bills your card, emails you receipt. If you're in a cab lite zone, you can optionally hail using app, just like Uber. As far as I can tell, this is BnL always faster pickup and less charge than Uber. Tell your friends in the city cabs are the new hotness.
bdcravens 9y ago
My first Uber was at RubyConf in San Diego a few years ago. We (a couple of devs that I met) were downtown at a meetup the day before, and we were going back to our hotel, a couple miles away downtown - nothing out of the ordinary. Our Uber driver had trouble communicating, and was asking us for directions. He revealed he had only been in town a couple of days. I was in the front seat, with two other devs in the back - he was chatting with me in front seat about all the sexual stuff he wanted to find on Craigslist that was illegal in his country. Yeah, definitely worse than any taxi I've ever taken.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  Can't say I've ever been treated to the sexual non-history of my taxi driver, but last weekend we grabbed a NYC cab with a driver who had no GPS, and no smart phone - we had to give him turn-by-turn directions to our destination in the Bronx. I don't expect my cabbies to have The Knowledge, but it would be nice if I didn't have to have my phone out the whole time, watching for upcoming turns and highway exits. At least Uber/Lyft/etc guarantee that the driver has a smartphone with internet connectivity. :/
  - blackguardx 9y ago
    Was this one of the green cabs that service the outer boros? If not, normal cabs usually concentrate on Manhattan and have only basic knowledge of everywhere else. It's helpful if you know the name of the neighborhood you are going to as well.
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      It was a yellow cab, but you make a good point - we were going to the Bronx, a bit east of the Zoo, which is probably not a very typical destination.
  - s0rce 9y ago
    Although they have a phone and internet there is no guarantee the gps is working/on. I've had an uber that took a long time to arrive due to incorrect gps and then I had to give them directions on the way, they must have been using wifi/cell tower positions as the location on the phone was wrong and jumping around.
bdrool 9y ago
Uber did the world a favor by breaking the back of the taxi monopoly. But now they need to either clean up their act or go away.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Uber did the world a favor by breaking the back of the taxi monopoly. In much the same way that the capitalist class "did the world a favor" by breaking the politico-economic power monopoly of the nobility.
  - bdrool 9y ago
    I'll just leave this here: http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/laura-washington-uber-solves-my-hailing-while-black-problem/ http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/laura-washington-uber-so...
  - sverige 9y ago
    ARTHUR: Well, I AM king... DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! ....If there's ever going to be any progress-- WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do? ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Whose castle is that? WOMAN: King of the who? ARTHUR: The Britons. WOMAN: Who are the Britons? ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king. WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective. DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. ..... A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes-- WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again. DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  You're talking like the taxi monopoly was a global monolith when in fact it was a local uncoordinated model that jurisdictions just copied from each other. IOW there was a taxi monopoly in most cities, but they're not all part of one big TaxiCorp.
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
This isn't directly related to your comment, but it's odd to me, grammatically, that people say Uber isn't a taxi service. It's like saying Amazon isn't a retailer--certainly it's different than the pre-internet model, but fundamentally they're providing the same service as the traditional businesses.
- SilasX 9y ago
  It depends on what you mean by the term, as there are different senses of "taxi service". In many cases, the law has long differentiated (for non-flaky reasons) between taxi services and limo services[1]. A taxi service is allowed to pick up street hails (i.e. arranged on the spot, by line-of-sight), while a limo service had to be booked and paid for through a third party. In a way, that makes regulatory sense -- there are many issues that arise with taxis (in this sense) that don't with limos -- unnamed randos getting into a stranger's car, large amounts of cash floating around, clogging up pickup points, fighting for fares, dubious upcharges. In that sense, Uber has functioned more as a limo service than a taxi service (except for this historic association between limo services and expensive cars). OTOH, I agree that it's ridiculous for them to claim it's "not a taxi service" in the sense of "just a technology company, bro!". It's certainly a ride service of some kind, for which safety/insurance regs are applicable and reasonable (or at least, not outrageous). (Ditto for the claim of "we just match people up!" -- they obviously are functioning more as a service provider with tight control of the product than some kind of marketplace or matchmaker.) [1] Despite it's name, that doesn't necessarily mean "stretch limo"; it could be a sedan.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago

I think you're both right and wrong. Uber is better than taxis for riders, and worse than taxis (in some ways) for drivers. Also consider that some Uber drivers couldn't realistically become taxi drivers in their spare time, and perhaps some of them would prefer to be underpaid by Uber rather than not working at all.

metamet 9y ago
Has it always been that way though? I remember when they first launched in SF, and I remember drivers being pretty excited about how much they were making driving. I remember talking to some folks who also drove taxi, mentioning that Uber paid them substantially more.
- kirykl 9y ago
  Driver quality correlates with price/earnings per mile on an S-Curve. Per mile earnings and per mile prices have both dropped.
- cavanasm 9y ago
  Part of this is that Uber was / is building a rider / driver base, and to do so, they accept losses on every ride. They were paying drivers more money than they were collecting in fares. It was an attempt to claim market share and drive competitors out of business (which hasn't quite worked thus far) so they could increase the prices later when they had price control power. Uber's existence is all based around investors dumping money faster than they burn it in operating costs (without ever turning a profit).
bdcravens 9y ago
> some Uber drivers couldn't realistically become taxi drivers See my response to parent comment. I've taken some Ubers that were undoubtedly driven by drivers who were unqualified to carry passengers.
gaius 9y ago
worse than taxis (in some ways) for drivers ... and taxpayers. Someone else pays for the upkeep of those roads, without which their business could not exist. In the UK, someone else pays for the healthcare of their drivers, as they dodge Employer's NI. Etc etc. The entire business model of "disruption" is pocketing what everyone else pays for the dependencies and externalities.
- cgag 9y ago
  what about uber/lyft is worse for the roads than taxis?
  - cozzyd 9y ago
    Taxis often have extra taxes/fees/tolls that theoretically go into maintenance (though I'm sure they may not in practice).
  - gaius 9y ago
    The fact that they contribute so little to the public purse: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/londons-black-cab-drivers-consider-court-action-against-uber https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/londons-b...
  - mrbabbage 9y ago
    At least in San Francisco, there's far more of them. The extra wear and tear on the roads ends up as a road repair bill that taxpayers pick up. If the TNCs were a 1:1 replacement for traditional taxis, this wouldn't be a legitimate argument, but the evidence out there suggests that TNCs have grown the size of the car hail market at the expense of off-peak transit, so the TNCs really are putting more cars on the streets.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Road wear is exponentially proportional to vehicle weight. Almost all of the wear is caused by large commercial trucks and other heavy vehicles such as buses. Passenger cars cause very little road wear. TNC drivers are mostly using lighter vehicles. https://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/ https://www.vabike.org/vehicle-weight-and-road-damage/
ehsankia 9y ago
Right, when we say Uber is better than Taxis, we generally mean "the Uber model is better than Taxis". We can exchange Uber with Lyft or any other company that works with thath model. It's about the general environment that ride sharing brings. Things like how using an app makes hailing a ride easier, how having a rating system forces drivers and riders to behave better, how mobile payment removes the awkwardness of exchanging money, etc. There's nothing specific to Uber in there, and when it does come to specifics, Uber is pretty awful as we've seen.
- semi-extrinsic 9y ago
  > There's nothing specific to Uber in there Even further, there's nothing specific to the Uber model in there. Every one of those things could be implemented exactly the same way by an ordinary cab company. In fact, many cab companies worldwide have already implemented both the first and the third one. The only unique thing about the Uber model as opposed to regular cabs is that it's priced lower through a combination of semi-illegal dirty tricks and setting unsustainably low (or negative) margins in order to maintain growth and capture the market.
  - creepydata 9y ago
    The good thing about Uber is that I can get an Uber no matter where in the world I am (assuming that town has Uber). I don't have to know what cab companies are around or what apps I have to download.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      That's about the only thing that's actually good about Uber. But even then, Europe has at least two competing taxi aggregator apps now, so this advantage is bound to disappear.
Terretta 9y ago
> "Uber is better than taxis for riders" Not in NYC. First, download Curb, add a payment option. Then... 1. Hail a cab, any cab, on street, get in immediately, no wait. 2. While riding, key cab code into app. Every cab is in same system. 3. At destination, simply exit cab. Apple Pay or regular cc pay bills your card, emails you receipt. If you're in a cab lite zone, you can optionally hail using app, just like Uber. As far as I can tell, this is BnL always faster pickup and less charge than Uber. Tell your friends in the city cabs are the new hotness.

bdcravens 9y ago

My first Uber was at RubyConf in San Diego a few years ago. We (a couple of devs that I met) were downtown at a meetup the day before, and we were going back to our hotel, a couple miles away downtown - nothing out of the ordinary. Our Uber driver had trouble communicating, and was asking us for directions. He revealed he had only been in town a couple of days. I was in the front seat, with two other devs in the back - he was chatting with me in front seat about all the sexual stuff he wanted to find on Craigslist that was illegal in his country. Yeah, definitely worse than any taxi I've ever taken.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
Can't say I've ever been treated to the sexual non-history of my taxi driver, but last weekend we grabbed a NYC cab with a driver who had no GPS, and no smart phone - we had to give him turn-by-turn directions to our destination in the Bronx. I don't expect my cabbies to have The Knowledge, but it would be nice if I didn't have to have my phone out the whole time, watching for upcoming turns and highway exits. At least Uber/Lyft/etc guarantee that the driver has a smartphone with internet connectivity. :/
- blackguardx 9y ago
  Was this one of the green cabs that service the outer boros? If not, normal cabs usually concentrate on Manhattan and have only basic knowledge of everywhere else. It's helpful if you know the name of the neighborhood you are going to as well.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    It was a yellow cab, but you make a good point - we were going to the Bronx, a bit east of the Zoo, which is probably not a very typical destination.
- s0rce 9y ago
  Although they have a phone and internet there is no guarantee the gps is working/on. I've had an uber that took a long time to arrive due to incorrect gps and then I had to give them directions on the way, they must have been using wifi/cell tower positions as the location on the phone was wrong and jumping around.

bdrool 9y ago

Uber did the world a favor by breaking the back of the taxi monopoly. But now they need to either clean up their act or go away.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> Uber did the world a favor by breaking the back of the taxi monopoly. In much the same way that the capitalist class "did the world a favor" by breaking the politico-economic power monopoly of the nobility.
- bdrool 9y ago
  I'll just leave this here: http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/laura-washington-uber-solves-my-hailing-while-black-problem/ http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/laura-washington-uber-so...
- sverige 9y ago
  ARTHUR: Well, I AM king... DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! ....If there's ever going to be any progress-- WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do? ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Whose castle is that? WOMAN: King of the who? ARTHUR: The Britons. WOMAN: Who are the Britons? ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king. WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective. DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. ..... A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes-- WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again. DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
anigbrowl 9y ago
You're talking like the taxi monopoly was a global monolith when in fact it was a local uncoordinated model that jurisdictions just copied from each other. IOW there was a taxi monopoly in most cities, but they're not all part of one big TaxiCorp.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

This isn't directly related to your comment, but it's odd to me, grammatically, that people say Uber isn't a taxi service. It's like saying Amazon isn't a retailer--certainly it's different than the pre-internet model, but fundamentally they're providing the same service as the traditional businesses.

SilasX 9y ago
It depends on what you mean by the term, as there are different senses of "taxi service". In many cases, the law has long differentiated (for non-flaky reasons) between taxi services and limo services[1]. A taxi service is allowed to pick up street hails (i.e. arranged on the spot, by line-of-sight), while a limo service had to be booked and paid for through a third party. In a way, that makes regulatory sense -- there are many issues that arise with taxis (in this sense) that don't with limos -- unnamed randos getting into a stranger's car, large amounts of cash floating around, clogging up pickup points, fighting for fares, dubious upcharges. In that sense, Uber has functioned more as a limo service than a taxi service (except for this historic association between limo services and expensive cars). OTOH, I agree that it's ridiculous for them to claim it's "not a taxi service" in the sense of "just a technology company, bro!". It's certainly a ride service of some kind, for which safety/insurance regs are applicable and reasonable (or at least, not outrageous). (Ditto for the claim of "we just match people up!" -- they obviously are functioning more as a service provider with tight control of the product than some kind of marketplace or matchmaker.) [1] Despite it's name, that doesn't necessarily mean "stretch limo"; it could be a sedan.