6 ms·

I've been using a Surface Pro 3 as my one-and-only for almost 3 years, and it really feels like time to upgrade, so I've been looking forward to this one. My w

I've been using a Surface Pro 3 as my one-and-only for almost 3 years, and it really feels like time to upgrade, so I've been looking forward to this one. My workload is probably something like 40% reading, 30% writing, 25% coding, and 5% running code, and the Surface has been a nearly ideal form factor for this. The new "Surface Pro" ticks a lot of boxes for me: - Supports my existing keyboard, pen, dock, and power adapter - Improves battery life substantially - Offers improved keyboard and pen for when I get around to it - Fanless options - Improved performance (not that I need much more) Unfortunately, the configurations are weird. My ideal machine is an i5/256GB/16GB. The closest I can get is i7/512GB/16GB, which nearly doubles the cost, and requires a fan. I just don't get how they can make the floor for 16GB RAM $2200. Is there any professional workload where 8GB isn't constricting today, let alone in another 3 years? My only thought here is that maybe the RAM increases the thermal envelope enough to require the fan, but that seems unlikely, and I would still happily make that sacrifice if I didn't have to also pay for the processor and disk upgrades. I'm going to harangue them on Twitter, and also look into clearance SP4s with 16GB.

pfooti 9y ago
what sort of coding do you do on the spro? I'm going to be buying a new laptop / ultraportable / tablet in the near future, and I'm curious about this. Can you comfortably run some kind of linux VM on it? What kind of external keyboard does it support? How does the display hold up in moderate lighting conditions? For a lot of work, I've got a desktop, but I use my 2013 mbp at cafes and such. I mostly do node and frontend work, so while a strict windows dev env is feasible, I prefer linux.
- passive 9y ago
  Most of what I do is python, but I've done a fair amount of JS, some PHP, Java and others, as needed. I have run VMs on this, but 8GB RAM gets tight, so it's not something I do regularly. I do use Microsofts version of Bash on Ubuntu for things where I am more comfortable with standard linux tools. I use the type cover for almost everything, but I've got a more traditional keyboard hooked up to my dock. The display is excellent. It's glossy, so direct sunlight is problematic, but otherwise it gets plenty bright and looks very good to me, though I suspect my tolerance for colour inaccuracy is pretty high.
  - wtvanhest 9y ago
    I am going to start learning Python, then eventually Django in a few weeks on a Surface. What is your overall setup for making it as painless as possible on Windows? I'd say my number 1 frustration in PC devops and I'm trying to figure out the install with the least amount of headaches.
    - passive 9y ago
      I would recommend Python 3 for sure. I just use the installers from https://www.python.org/ https://www.python.org/ and don't tend to have any problems. I prefer lightweight tools, so I use Visual Studio Code. It won't hold your hand, but neither will it get in your way. When working on projects, get in the habit of using virtualenvs. It's a small amount of overhead, but will save you a ton of frustration in the long run. A primer on windows: From project directory, initialize it: > python -m venv .env (I put my virtualenvs in .env out of habit. Virtualenvwrapper, itself a useful addition for managing virtualenvs, puts them in your home directory, which can be fine too.) Activate it: > .env\Scripts\activate.bat Use "pip" to install your dependencies. Also use "pip freeze" to record those dependencies for installations elsewhere. I'm currently following this for dependency management: https://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/a-better-pip-workflow https://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/a-better-pip-workflow
- doublerebel 9y ago
  Coding? All of it. C++, Node, frontend... The dense screen is great and flipping to portrait can be nice. Keyboard? Anything USB or Bluetooth. Only one USB port, though. Display? Pretty bright, the spec is posted if you look. Glossy, but everything is these days. VM? Sure, it's a 2 core 4 thread processor, just order enough RAM. My i7 has Hyper-V but I don't know if that extends across all procs.
  - csixty4 9y ago
    A Surface with i5 does Hyper-V nicely. The current incarnation of Docker keeps a Hyper-V VM running for Linux containers, but my understanding is it'll soon just use the kernal's Linux support.
    - akavel 9y ago
      I have a Core m3 SP4 (because fanless), and am running Hyper-V on it too, with NixOS. That said, I wasn't able to give it more than 1.5 GB RAM, and even this only after I temporarily close Firefox on the host. (Firefox starts a-OK afterwards, even with numerous tabs open.) Some details on running NixOS in Hyper-V, in case anyone's interested: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/microsoft/hyper-v-guest.md https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/microsof... EDIT: ah, yes: worth to note, the first specimen I bought had some kind of hardware issue; the GPU driver was crashing somewhat frequently, and the whole machine was crashing from time to time too (like, a couple times a week). Was super disheartening. Fortunately, I was able to replace it in the shop where I got it (they had a limited time offer where you could replace during the first month, no questions asked; http://x-kom.pl http://x-kom.pl, just to thank them through some lip service). The replacement doesn't show such problems, fortunately (over a year already).
- bluedino 9y ago
  Is the i7 a quad-core or dual-core? Java development + a VM really needs a more power than the 13" competition can provide.
  - neogodless 9y ago
    Dual-core U series. Really barely higher performance compared to the i5.
- komali2 9y ago
  I'm a web dev front/back, I just use the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Works like a charm. Check out this huge comment chain from a couple weeks back on styling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317932
doublerebel 9y ago
The priciest part should be the SSD, and most people are fine with a small SSD and use the microSD for overflow. I'm similar to you, I just chose a 16GB i7 256GB model SP4 with the Alcántara keyboard, and it came in well under 2K. Super powerful and the price point well beating a comparable Mac was one of the top selling points for me. I have storage coming out of my ears after years of collecting disks cards servers and clouds so I have no need to buy a larger SSD. Being forced into a higher bracket would make me look around more. The clearance SP4s are a great deal right now and I'm not regretting my full-price purchase.
- passive 9y ago
  I've got 256GB currently, and I definitely couldn't go smaller, but it only becomes limiting every few months. 8GB RAM on the other hand, is 85% full nearly all the time, so I actively make decisions to work around that. Enjoy your SP4!
  - kartickv 9y ago
    Would you buy a 256GB device if two people are going to share it? Or pay $2200 for 512?
p1esk 9y ago
Their reasoning might be if you need 16GB you're probably a professional, doing professional work on the laptop. So you should be able to afford to pay more.
- passive 9y ago
  I think this makes sense, and is likely largely true, in terms of how companies budget for laptops.
Joeri 9y ago
Do you actually use it in tablet mode? I always wonder how many surface pro buyers actually use it as anything but a laptop.
- Totoradio 9y ago
  I use mine in tablet mode when watching a movie. I get the keyboard out of the way so I can angle the thing just right when on a plane or a train. I also do it when browsing my RSS feeds with NextGen Reader.
- passive 9y ago
  It's a laptop* 90%+ of the time. It's a tablet when: - Reading, watching, or gaming, particularly if I'm walking around frequently - Taking notes (principle reason I got the Surface was my attachment to handwritten notes) *I often use the Surface with the keyboard attached, but in positions that no ordinary laptop could support. Laying on the couch with the hinge hooked between my knees and the keyboard on my thighs, or with the hinge hooked over the steering wheel and the keyboard more or less dangling (not while driving, of course). Even though it's a small amount of my usage, having that capability available to me means I can avoid carrying other things.
- e12e 9y ago
  It's great for drawing/doodling/note-taking and reading books and comics in tablet mode.
- kayoone 9y ago
  i use my SP2 primarily in tablet mode for note taking in onenote. I study part-time and all my writing and notes go in there, which are auto synced to my Desktop and Macbook. In theory i could use the Surface for everything, but then i would need to hookup external peripherals and the note taking experience would suffer with rearranging/unplugging all the time. I wonder how others solve that.
- sixothree 9y ago
  Anecdotally I never actually use my surface as a laptop. When it's docked I use keyboard mouse etc. When it's not I use the OSK and touch. They keyboard cover is nice, but I find it to be an incredibly annoying add-on to what I consider a perfect form-factor.
listic 9y ago
Why would you even want to upgrade if you don't need the performance?
- passive 9y ago
  Well, I have found performance to be a little choppy over the last few months, but a fresh Windows install would probably help there at least some, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Creators Update isn't quite as smooth on older hardware. Somewhat more concerning is the half dozen times in recent months where it has crashed and then had some kind of trouble starting up. Two such times I was convinced that it was the end for it, but leaving it for a while always allowed it to recover. But mostly, battery life. SP3 wasn't a champ to start with, but I could get 4+ hours of work done easily without charging. At this point it's less than 2 hours before I'm hunting for a charger, which does change how I use the device.
andrewbinstock 9y ago
Can you run Visual Studio and all other Windows apps on the Surface?
- akavel 9y ago
  Yes.
- jamiepenney 9y ago
  Yeah, it's running a normal version of windows.
Tsagadai 9y ago
RAM really isn't that expensive, even if it is soldered onto the board. I wish more laptop manufacturers would make 16GB available in lower end models and have a true higher end of 64GB or more (instead of just 32GB).
- passive 9y ago
  From what I've heard, certain types of memory are only supported by certain CPUs/chipsets up to a certain size, and even though other types of memory are supported, those are a more power-hungry variety that laptop makers tend to avoid. But in spirit, yes, this. The upgrade in RAM should be $80 in hardware, but I have to pay $900 for it because of the configuration options.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    It's like paying $100 for effectively a 16G sd card (same chip) in ... every phone on the market effectively.
rtpg 9y ago
It might not be the absolute best, but 8GB is totally workable for a lot of dev situations, especially if you're not doing a docker-style situation. I've recently went form 8GB to 16GB (and a processor jump) and my dev environment haven't really gotten snappier. That said it still feels like the easiest thing they could offer in all SKUs, given the price.
- zumu 9y ago
  I did all of 2016 as a full time webdev with 4 gigs (not on a surface pro). Linux, a reasonably memory efficient text editor, and some chrome tab discipline is all it takes. In end, however, Docker dependencies eventually forced my hand to upgrade.
- passive 9y ago
  I've got 8 in my SP3, and Chrome by itself is usually eating 3+. My development work isn't that heavy (but is very dockerized). I'm usually around 85% utilization, and then if I have a video call I may need to shut other things down. Mostly I'm just hoping to reduce the amount of trading like that I need to do. Then there's the fact that I expect to keep it for another 3 years, and I doubt memory usage will go down.
AdrianB1 9y ago
I have the same issue with the new Surface Pro: I run some VM's for robot automations (the environment is quite strict, that's why I need a VM) and 8GB is quite limiting, while the CPU does not matter, no need for an i7. Tough luck, I will not spend $2000+ just to have enough RAM, so I use the desktop (32GB) for solid work and a cheapo' laptop for portability. Too bad :(
partiallypro 9y ago
I agree, I have had a SP3 and SP4 with the i5/256 configuration, and I'd pay more for the 16GB option...but the i7 is too expensive of a leap. I really wish they'd offer an i5/256GB/16GB RAM option. The Pro 4 is a sizable leap from the 3 (surprisingly, mostly because the 3 throttles at high temps, I think.) So an upgrade with just 8GB will probably suffice...but yeah, it would be nice.

pfooti 9y ago

what sort of coding do you do on the spro? I'm going to be buying a new laptop / ultraportable / tablet in the near future, and I'm curious about this. Can you comfortably run some kind of linux VM on it? What kind of external keyboard does it support? How does the display hold up in moderate lighting conditions? For a lot of work, I've got a desktop, but I use my 2013 mbp at cafes and such. I mostly do node and frontend work, so while a strict windows dev env is feasible, I prefer linux.

passive 9y ago
Most of what I do is python, but I've done a fair amount of JS, some PHP, Java and others, as needed. I have run VMs on this, but 8GB RAM gets tight, so it's not something I do regularly. I do use Microsofts version of Bash on Ubuntu for things where I am more comfortable with standard linux tools. I use the type cover for almost everything, but I've got a more traditional keyboard hooked up to my dock. The display is excellent. It's glossy, so direct sunlight is problematic, but otherwise it gets plenty bright and looks very good to me, though I suspect my tolerance for colour inaccuracy is pretty high.
- wtvanhest 9y ago
  I am going to start learning Python, then eventually Django in a few weeks on a Surface. What is your overall setup for making it as painless as possible on Windows? I'd say my number 1 frustration in PC devops and I'm trying to figure out the install with the least amount of headaches.
  - passive 9y ago
    I would recommend Python 3 for sure. I just use the installers from https://www.python.org/ https://www.python.org/ and don't tend to have any problems. I prefer lightweight tools, so I use Visual Studio Code. It won't hold your hand, but neither will it get in your way. When working on projects, get in the habit of using virtualenvs. It's a small amount of overhead, but will save you a ton of frustration in the long run. A primer on windows: From project directory, initialize it: > python -m venv .env (I put my virtualenvs in .env out of habit. Virtualenvwrapper, itself a useful addition for managing virtualenvs, puts them in your home directory, which can be fine too.) Activate it: > .env\Scripts\activate.bat Use "pip" to install your dependencies. Also use "pip freeze" to record those dependencies for installations elsewhere. I'm currently following this for dependency management: https://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/a-better-pip-workflow https://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/a-better-pip-workflow
doublerebel 9y ago
Coding? All of it. C++, Node, frontend... The dense screen is great and flipping to portrait can be nice. Keyboard? Anything USB or Bluetooth. Only one USB port, though. Display? Pretty bright, the spec is posted if you look. Glossy, but everything is these days. VM? Sure, it's a 2 core 4 thread processor, just order enough RAM. My i7 has Hyper-V but I don't know if that extends across all procs.
- csixty4 9y ago
  A Surface with i5 does Hyper-V nicely. The current incarnation of Docker keeps a Hyper-V VM running for Linux containers, but my understanding is it'll soon just use the kernal's Linux support.
  - akavel 9y ago
    I have a Core m3 SP4 (because fanless), and am running Hyper-V on it too, with NixOS. That said, I wasn't able to give it more than 1.5 GB RAM, and even this only after I temporarily close Firefox on the host. (Firefox starts a-OK afterwards, even with numerous tabs open.) Some details on running NixOS in Hyper-V, in case anyone's interested: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/microsoft/hyper-v-guest.md https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/microsof... EDIT: ah, yes: worth to note, the first specimen I bought had some kind of hardware issue; the GPU driver was crashing somewhat frequently, and the whole machine was crashing from time to time too (like, a couple times a week). Was super disheartening. Fortunately, I was able to replace it in the shop where I got it (they had a limited time offer where you could replace during the first month, no questions asked; http://x-kom.pl http://x-kom.pl, just to thank them through some lip service). The replacement doesn't show such problems, fortunately (over a year already).
bluedino 9y ago
Is the i7 a quad-core or dual-core? Java development + a VM really needs a more power than the 13" competition can provide.
- neogodless 9y ago
  Dual-core U series. Really barely higher performance compared to the i5.
komali2 9y ago
I'm a web dev front/back, I just use the Windows Subsystem for Linux. Works like a charm. Check out this huge comment chain from a couple weeks back on styling it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14317932

doublerebel 9y ago

The priciest part should be the SSD, and most people are fine with a small SSD and use the microSD for overflow. I'm similar to you, I just chose a 16GB i7 256GB model SP4 with the Alcántara keyboard, and it came in well under 2K. Super powerful and the price point well beating a comparable Mac was one of the top selling points for me. I have storage coming out of my ears after years of collecting disks cards servers and clouds so I have no need to buy a larger SSD. Being forced into a higher bracket would make me look around more. The clearance SP4s are a great deal right now and I'm not regretting my full-price purchase.

passive 9y ago
I've got 256GB currently, and I definitely couldn't go smaller, but it only becomes limiting every few months. 8GB RAM on the other hand, is 85% full nearly all the time, so I actively make decisions to work around that. Enjoy your SP4!
- kartickv 9y ago
  Would you buy a 256GB device if two people are going to share it? Or pay $2200 for 512?

p1esk 9y ago

Their reasoning might be if you need 16GB you're probably a professional, doing professional work on the laptop. So you should be able to afford to pay more.

passive 9y ago
I think this makes sense, and is likely largely true, in terms of how companies budget for laptops.

Joeri 9y ago

Do you actually use it in tablet mode? I always wonder how many surface pro buyers actually use it as anything but a laptop.

Totoradio 9y ago
I use mine in tablet mode when watching a movie. I get the keyboard out of the way so I can angle the thing just right when on a plane or a train. I also do it when browsing my RSS feeds with NextGen Reader.
passive 9y ago
It's a laptop* 90%+ of the time. It's a tablet when: - Reading, watching, or gaming, particularly if I'm walking around frequently - Taking notes (principle reason I got the Surface was my attachment to handwritten notes) *I often use the Surface with the keyboard attached, but in positions that no ordinary laptop could support. Laying on the couch with the hinge hooked between my knees and the keyboard on my thighs, or with the hinge hooked over the steering wheel and the keyboard more or less dangling (not while driving, of course). Even though it's a small amount of my usage, having that capability available to me means I can avoid carrying other things.
e12e 9y ago
It's great for drawing/doodling/note-taking and reading books and comics in tablet mode.
kayoone 9y ago
i use my SP2 primarily in tablet mode for note taking in onenote. I study part-time and all my writing and notes go in there, which are auto synced to my Desktop and Macbook. In theory i could use the Surface for everything, but then i would need to hookup external peripherals and the note taking experience would suffer with rearranging/unplugging all the time. I wonder how others solve that.
sixothree 9y ago
Anecdotally I never actually use my surface as a laptop. When it's docked I use keyboard mouse etc. When it's not I use the OSK and touch. They keyboard cover is nice, but I find it to be an incredibly annoying add-on to what I consider a perfect form-factor.

listic 9y ago

Why would you even want to upgrade if you don't need the performance?

passive 9y ago
Well, I have found performance to be a little choppy over the last few months, but a fresh Windows install would probably help there at least some, though it wouldn't surprise me if the Creators Update isn't quite as smooth on older hardware. Somewhat more concerning is the half dozen times in recent months where it has crashed and then had some kind of trouble starting up. Two such times I was convinced that it was the end for it, but leaving it for a while always allowed it to recover. But mostly, battery life. SP3 wasn't a champ to start with, but I could get 4+ hours of work done easily without charging. At this point it's less than 2 hours before I'm hunting for a charger, which does change how I use the device.

andrewbinstock 9y ago

Can you run Visual Studio and all other Windows apps on the Surface?

akavel 9y ago
Yes.
jamiepenney 9y ago
Yeah, it's running a normal version of windows.

Tsagadai 9y ago

RAM really isn't that expensive, even if it is soldered onto the board. I wish more laptop manufacturers would make 16GB available in lower end models and have a true higher end of 64GB or more (instead of just 32GB).

passive 9y ago
From what I've heard, certain types of memory are only supported by certain CPUs/chipsets up to a certain size, and even though other types of memory are supported, those are a more power-hungry variety that laptop makers tend to avoid. But in spirit, yes, this. The upgrade in RAM should be $80 in hardware, but I have to pay $900 for it because of the configuration options.
- candiodari 9y ago
  It's like paying $100 for effectively a 16G sd card (same chip) in ... every phone on the market effectively.

rtpg 9y ago

It might not be the absolute best, but 8GB is totally workable for a lot of dev situations, especially if you're not doing a docker-style situation. I've recently went form 8GB to 16GB (and a processor jump) and my dev environment haven't really gotten snappier. That said it still feels like the easiest thing they could offer in all SKUs, given the price.

zumu 9y ago
I did all of 2016 as a full time webdev with 4 gigs (not on a surface pro). Linux, a reasonably memory efficient text editor, and some chrome tab discipline is all it takes. In end, however, Docker dependencies eventually forced my hand to upgrade.
passive 9y ago
I've got 8 in my SP3, and Chrome by itself is usually eating 3+. My development work isn't that heavy (but is very dockerized). I'm usually around 85% utilization, and then if I have a video call I may need to shut other things down. Mostly I'm just hoping to reduce the amount of trading like that I need to do. Then there's the fact that I expect to keep it for another 3 years, and I doubt memory usage will go down.

AdrianB1 9y ago

I have the same issue with the new Surface Pro: I run some VM's for robot automations (the environment is quite strict, that's why I need a VM) and 8GB is quite limiting, while the CPU does not matter, no need for an i7. Tough luck, I will not spend $2000+ just to have enough RAM, so I use the desktop (32GB) for solid work and a cheapo' laptop for portability. Too bad :(

partiallypro 9y ago

I agree, I have had a SP3 and SP4 with the i5/256 configuration, and I'd pay more for the 16GB option...but the i7 is too expensive of a leap. I really wish they'd offer an i5/256GB/16GB RAM option. The Pro 4 is a sizable leap from the 3 (surprisingly, mostly because the 3 throttles at high temps, I think.) So an upgrade with just 8GB will probably suffice...but yeah, it would be nice.