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As long as you aren't gay, atheist or agnostic. If you are, the BSA doesn't want anything to do with you.
by whyenot 16y ago
As long as you aren't gay, atheist or agnostic. If you are, the BSA doesn't want anything to do with you.
- fr0man 16y agoYou can be a youth member and be gay as long as you're willing to live as a second class citizen, i.e. not avow that you're homosexual or hold a youth leadership position. They don't specifically bar homosexuals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membershi... Because, you know, nothing is better for our youth than making them deny who they are and teaching them they aren't worthy of being in a leadership position because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoMore accurately: lack of religeous beliefs?
- whyenot 16y agoIt is effectively a ban. You can not advance through the ranks as a boy scout if you can not hold leadership positions. As an example, here are the requirements for eagle scout. Check requirement #4. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp Compare to the girl scouts who have held this position on sexual orientation since 1991: As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference.
- enjo 16y agoThat statement always sells them a couple of boxes of thin mints every year:)
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoMy Troop has all three. Its kind of like "don't ask; don't tell". And its really the leaders that are scrutinized. BSA is a heterosexual mens' club. There are every other kind of club; why not this one?
- caryme 16y agoAnd it provides the same result as "don't ask; don't tell": it creates an environment where people are not free to be honest about who they are and sets up a structure that reinforces the idea that one kind of person is inherently better than another. The BSA also does this to boys at an especially formative time in their lives. Why is scrutinizing the leaders any more acceptable than scrutinizing the boys? The world is a heterosexual mens' club. The rest of us would like to be included.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoI defer to your experiences; only consider Boy Scouts is no different from gym class, the mall or any other place boys congregate. Also we separate the boys from the girls at this age, because it's helpful (reduces acting out, focuses goals). That's not considered a terrible thing, at least by youth leaders who have a dozen young people to teach/train.
- caryme 16y agoEspecially coming from my experiences as a camp counselor, I totally understand the value of separating boys and girls sometimes. I can't think of any circumstance when it would be useful to separate a group of adolescents by sexual orientation, but I won't say such a circumstance doesn't exist. The problem is, unlike gender (currently disregarding transgender/gender queer/intersexed folks), you can't determine someone's sexual orientation - especially at this age. So it's not so much that the world is a heterosexual mens' club, but more that the heterosexual men think it is. As a result, they speak and behave based on that assumption. This assumption further marginalizes those who may already feel like outsiders within their own community.
- SwellJoe 16y agoIt makes me really sad that the BSA has chosen their current highly politicized position. When I was a scout nearly twenty years ago (holy crap, that's weird to say; getting old is funny), I was already agnostic, leaning atheist, and my troop had a quietly but openly gay member, and our scout leaders knew it. The only time religion ever came up was during summer camp at Camp Old Indian in the mountains in South Carolina...there was a non-denominational meeting on Sunday morning in an old chapel. Attendance was encouraged but optional. I don't know if my troop was just a really open-minded one (in small town South Carolina, that seems really unlikely!), or the policies of the BSA have changed dramatically. I do know that a friend's little brother joined the same troop several years later but with different leadership and did not find it enjoyable and quit within a couple of months. The troop had moved its meetings out of the old train car it used when I was a scout, and into a Southern Baptist church, and apparently the mood of the troop changed with that move. It's depressing because I'd always assumed that when I had kids, they'd have the same scouting experience I had, and that I'd participate as a volunteer scout leader. It was a wonderful experience for me, and I wish all boys could have those kinds of male role models in their lives, as well as that kind of camaraderie with other boys. But, given the way the organization seems to have changed into a tool for promoting a hate-filled agenda, I guess it's just not going to happen. Even if my kid did happen to be the "right kind" of kid for the BSA, I wouldn't want him being exposed to that kind of backward thinking and I can't support an organization with that kind of agenda.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoThe rules were probably the same or worse when you were younger. Open-minded local leaders have considerable lattitude. Consider: refusal to participate and let youth see your good example hurts only the boys. And really helps no one.
- SwellJoe 16y agoThe rules were probably the same or worse when you were younger. Not quite true, according to what I've read. The BSA had no official policy on homosexuals or atheists until a few years ago. No position is definitely better than a position of blatant intolerance, in this case. Admittedly, "reverent" has been in the Boy Scouts Law forever, as far as I know. It does not define "God", though, so it's a pretty flexible sort of thing. The Order of the Arrow, and its borrowing of lots of Native American mythology, seems to make it clear that "God" means whatever your conception of God might be, probably including a simple naturalist concept of greatest good, which I'd have no trouble professing reverence for. Jewish and Muslim kids are welcome in the Boy Scouts, so it can't be merely the Christian God. Consider: refusal to participate and let youth see your good example hurts only the boys. And really helps no one. Valid argument. But, the fact that the official position of the Boy Scouts is now against gays and atheists, the only example I could set would be one of lying in order to participate. Being an atheist, I am explicitly prohibited from being involved in Boy Scout leadership. I would have to profess beliefs I do not hold, either actively or passively, in order to take part. I'm not willing to do that. I'm not an angry atheist, or anything, and I don't really care to trumpet my beliefs (or lack thereof) from the rooftops, but I also won't pretend to believe in something I actually believe is generally a destructive force.
- mkramlich 16y agoBut if you're gay you can still become a Catholic priest. You might have to cover up being agnostic. But you'll definitely get to work with young boys and help "educate" them.
- rortian 16y agoIt is not okay to imply that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing.
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoRight; but unfortunately one is a proper subset of the other.
- caryme 16y agoI can't say my entire scouting experience was wonderful, but I loved the time I spent backpacking with my troop. We hiked regularly in the Ocala National Forrest in Florida and took trips in the summer to North Carolina, the Southwest Canyons, and Philmont. Reservations aside, if my children chose to get involved with Boy Scouts, I would love to be a leader. I'd like to give my time like my dad, who planned and hiked the Southwest Canyons trip, did for me. But I can't. The BSA considers me an unfit role model.
- lambda 16y agoOr female. Remember, the Boy Scouts of America, by design, discriminates against over 50% of the population. Why is it surprising that they'd discriminate against a few more percent? (Also, polytheists are not allowed. You must believe in exactly one god, though which god it is is up to you)
- JoeAltmaier 16y agoThe fact that Girl Scouts is lame, is an issue you should take up with your local Girl Scout leaders. If they dont go backpacking, climibing, or hiking the high desert, its the local Girl Scout leaders that are to blame.
- lambda 16y agoI thought that we decided that "separate but equal" was an awful idea, that never really leads to equality, a long time ago. You are never going to get the same experience in two completely separate, segregated groups. Sure, there's a chance that the Girl Scout experience could be better, but it's not likely given the lower prominence, funding, and cultural norms that say that girls aren't as into the outdoors as boys are. From Brown v. Board of Education: 'We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment.' Now, as a private organization, sure, the Boy Scouts should be allowed to discriminate as they please. But they shouldn't be funded by taxpayers if that's the case, through free or discounted access to public buildings, classrooms, and parks.