8 ms·

Mike Replies To A Slightly Offended, Not Very Enthusiastic Scout.

121 points by Sukotto 16y ago

Sukotto 16y ago
If your strategy in Scouts (and Life) is to avoid those activities and requirements that you don’t enjoy, you will have a difficult time transcending any definition of mediocrity. That’s not a criticism -- merely an observation.
- hugh3 16y ago
  What if your strategy in life is to pursue whatever arbitrary goal is placed in front of you by some authority figure despite the complete lack of tangible rewards for doing so? This sounds less like a recipe for producing a successful and resourceful man of the world and more like a recipe for a guy who spends his spare time trying to get all the achievements on Grand Theft Auto 4.
  - chromatic 16y ago
    That sounds like a false dilemma.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Perhaps, but then again so is "Become an Eagle Scout" vs "be a loser your whole life".
      - mikeryan 16y ago
        Is that how you read Mike's response? Because I thought he took pains to clearly not tie those two together.
        sprout 16y ago
        Somewhat crassly stated, but Mike's argument is equally false, even if more polite. Basically, Mike's argument was "either you're afraid of failure and you need to suck it up, or you need to quit because you don't belong in scouts."
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    The goals of BSA are many and varied; boys don't persue arbitrary goals at all. And Eagle Scout is awarded to recognize those that go above and beyond; the Scout must perform an important service to the community that is important to him. He gets to choose.
  - moultano 16y ago
    The things you learn and the skills you demonstrate to become an Eagle scout are _Not_ arbitrary. To earn it you have to demonstrate that you can lead a group of people to do something useful, contribute meaningfully to your community, know basic first aid, and have some skill in the outdoors. The tangible awards for this are the skills and experience themselves.
- samdk 16y ago
  I'd argue that if you don't focus your efforts on the things that really matter to you you're going to have a tough time transcending mediocrity for entirely different reasons. If you avoid all activities and requirements that you don't enjoy then yes, you're going to have a very hard time becoming good at anything. But if you take on every challenge that you can just because it's there, you're going to fail at most of them and have a much harder time with those you really do care about.
- dagw 16y ago
  I've been involved in boy scouts from when I could join cub scouts until I turned 20. I really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it, but never made any attempt to get Eagle. For me that simply wasn't what scouting was about. Sure when I was young getting badges and awards was cool and all, but from about 16 or 17 I lost all interest in that. From then on, for me, scouts was about teaching younger kids cool things I knew and outdoor activities. That was what I enjoyed and that that's what I dedicated my time to, and as a result I never, officially, got beyond Star. Was I Doing It Wrong, perhaps according to the official measurements. But I fail to see how I or my troop would have been better off by me grinding merit badges instead of teaching kids how to climb.
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    No, you were doing it very, very right. Scouts has room for all kinds - Camping Scouts, Fellowship Scouts, OA Scouts, Merit Badge Scouts, Leadership Scouts. Eagle is just one path. And btw National Standard is to get every Scout to 1st Class.
- Oxryly 16y ago
  Excellent observation. I'd go a step further and say you'll wind up avoiding your own self in the process -- which in turn will make you miserable. The Boy Scouts certainly helped me face my self directly, almost always against my preferences. Now if they (and I) had done a better job at prioritizing my time and dealing with my "atheism" I'd have made Eagle. Of course I would have felt guilty supporting an organization that essentially required a certain form of religious belief and also discriminated against gays. Their message and practice is flawed but still contains quite a bit of wisdom.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
Eagle Scout does not manufacture a committed, resourceful individual; it recognizes one.
- whyenot 16y ago
  As long as you aren't gay, atheist or agnostic. If you are, the BSA doesn't want anything to do with you.
  - fr0man 16y ago
    You can be a youth member and be gay as long as you're willing to live as a second class citizen, i.e. not avow that you're homosexual or hold a youth leadership position. They don't specifically bar homosexuals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membershi... Because, you know, nothing is better for our youth than making them deny who they are and teaching them they aren't worthy of being in a leadership position because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
    - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
      More accurately: lack of religeous beliefs?
    - whyenot 16y ago
      It is effectively a ban. You can not advance through the ranks as a boy scout if you can not hold leadership positions. As an example, here are the requirements for eagle scout. Check requirement #4. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp Compare to the girl scouts who have held this position on sexual orientation since 1991: As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference.
      - enjo 16y ago
tptacek 16y ago
I had no idea Mike Rowe was this engaged with the Boy Scouts. He has a really interesting life story. And _Dirty Jobs_ is one of the very few decent arguments for paying for cable. Follow the link to the form letter he sends Eagle Scouts; it's just as good as this post is.
Splines 16y ago
Every time I see something from Mike Rowe I'm always impressed. From Dirty Jobs, his TED talk, this email correspondence, and even his early days as a QVC presenter, he has always exuded a sense of class and gentility.
- trafficlight 16y ago
  It's okay. You can say it. You have a man-crush on Mike Rowe. Don't worry, so do I.
slamo 16y ago
My headline would have been different: Mike Rowe arbitrarily defines success, denounces otherwise high achieving boy for not meeting it.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  Blogger writes post requiring complete reading to understand; HN reader TL;DRs and does not.
- jggube 16y ago
  You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way. Sounds like a pretty solid definition of success to me.
Aaronontheweb 16y ago
One of the biggest regrets I have from my childhood was leaving the Boy Scouts when I had to make a hard choice between attending the annual week of summer camp (was made mandatory for advancement when I became a freshman in high school) and hell week for football, both of which occurred at the same time every year (late August two weeks before school started.) I owe a lot of my character today, particularly my mental toughness, to what I experienced playing football, but I still regret making the choice to abandon Scouting and never reaching Eagle. I suspect I'd regret not playing football had I stuck with Scouting instead. Oh well, life's about choices and their consequences.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  Or, you know, you could move past both Scouting and high school football.
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    If "move past" means learning nothing from your life...
    - CamperBob 16y ago
      Which it doesn't.
jbarciauskas 16y ago
So, my question is, what is the problem with enjoying an activity as a social activity rather than a goal-achievement activity? If he chooses to spend his social time in a softball league rather than Scouts, is he doomed to mediocrity for not training to become the best softball player he is capable of? Why didn't this conversation end at "sounds like Eagle Scout isn't for you, just make sure to be really good at something else"? The ultimatum of "Eagle or quit" is nonsensical to me. This person clearly has dedication to other parts of his life, and Scouts is just a soical outlet. Why should he give that up, how does that imply impending mediocrity?
- caryme 16y ago
  I completely agree. I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure, or at least that I gave up, when I say no. But I don't feel that way myself. I had different priorities and different goals within scouting. For example, I could have done an Eagle project the summer after high school, but I left immediately to be a camp counselor at the church camp - something I had dreamed of doing since the third grade. Had I stayed home, I would have had the time to go through with a project. But I had different priorities. I wasn't in scouting for the Eagle. I was in it for the friends and for the adventure. I hiked, biked, and canoed. I helped my troop become more scout-led. I didn't do it halfway.
  - SwellJoe 16y ago
    I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure That's weird. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'm an Eagle Scout (I'm not; I dropped out at Life, a couple of badges and a project shy of Eagle) in the nearly two decades since I quit. I must not hang out with the kind of people that care about Boy Scout ranks.
- chrisa 16y ago
  While I certainly agree that it doesn’t imply mediocrity, my experience in Boy Scouts is this: While there are exceptions (see dagw’s comment below for example), I have found that scouts who aren’t interested in getting to eagle are a net drain on the troop. Boy Scouts is an organization that is about fun, yes, but it is also geared toward learning and building character. When a scout isn’t actively working toward a goal (the next rank, a new merit badge, etc), they have little else to do but distract others. I understand that not all activities have to be goal oriented, but I do have a problem when the behavior of un-interested scouts affects others in a negative way. On the other hand, if you’re committed to the troop and activities, but are simply not interested in eagle, (as many here have pointed out) – then yes, I agree.
dkarl 16y ago
Given your excellence in school, your commitment to physical fitness, and your desire for higher education, that confession strikes me as a bit out of context. I mean, why would a guy who’s so passionate and deliberate about everything else in his life invest his time doing something for which he has so little enthusiasm? Damn, can't you do anything just for fun anymore? Enthusiasm for an activity has to manifest itself as enthusiasm for earning the highest possible certification? My advice? Quit Scouting today. Or, quit pretending not to care. Because the short answer to your question goes like this – You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way. People do all kinds of things halfway. It's inevitable. You're going to cook halfway, dress halfway, play sports halfway, appreciate movies and art and books halfway, train your pets halfway, and blog halfway. Sure, you can pick one or two of those and do them in a fully-assed way, but what about the rest? Are you just going to give them up? Or are you going to hide behind the fact that nobody has instituted a system of ranking and achievements? Well, did you know you can be tested and certified on your ability to taste wine? Better stop drinking wine! Better not teach your dog to sit unless you're committed to earning the highest AKC obedience titles. Not only would you be half-assed, you'd have a half-assed dog, too. (My question: can you keep the dog as long as you don't train it, or does just having a non-obedience-certified dog make you half-assed?) American tennis players, did you know that the US Tennis Association sorts amateurs into numbered levels? Better stop playing tennis unless you're committed to maxing out! So you like to go hiking on weekends? Uh oh, there's adventure racing and orienteering... you'd better go indoors. You're doing the outdoors half-assed. Well, maybe he'd agree with me on that one.
- minouye 16y ago
  "The most valuable lesson I learned in Scouting, was not merely the importance of trying things I didn’t enjoy, it was the ability to learn how to enjoy those same things." Yes, we all do things halfway, but when you are fully committed to a task, a project, or a cause, so much more can be accomplished. I am an Eagle Scout and I certainly hated a lot of the scouting requirements. They seemed silly, and time-consuming, and frivilous--how many 14 year-old's spend hours weaving a basket?! However, I know a lot of people who got so close to achieving an Eagle rank but chose not to. Did it materially change their life? Obviously not, but a lot of them reflect back on it and think, 'I was so close, why didn't I try just slightly harder?' You don't have to have been involved in Scouting to know that feeling. "I was so close, if I only I had tried harder" is a feeling that sucks and that's what Mike Rowe is trying to tell this Scout.
kenjackson 16y ago
This ain't the MikeRoweSoft kid?! I wasted my time reading a letter from the guy from Dirty Jobs? I was kinda wondering why people were writing that kid letters.
protomyth 16y ago
“Everybody-Gets-a-Trophy” part is particularly rich. I still think the biggest problem with it is that children will not find what they are really good at / really enjoy because they are not allowed to fail and success is cheapened.
julius_geezer 16y ago
As someone who dropped out after 2nd Class (probably would've kept on to 1st but we moved), I'm with the kid. It took me forever to make 2nd Class because I had other commitments on Saturdays. But I had a bunch of friends in the troop. G.K. Chesterton somewhere wrote that "Everything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm with dkarl on this one.

121 points by Sukotto 16y ago

If your strategy in Scouts (and Life) is to avoid those activities and requirements that you don’t enjoy, you will have a difficult time transcending any definition of mediocrity. That’s not a criticism -- merely an observation.

hugh3 16y ago
What if your strategy in life is to pursue whatever arbitrary goal is placed in front of you by some authority figure despite the complete lack of tangible rewards for doing so? This sounds less like a recipe for producing a successful and resourceful man of the world and more like a recipe for a guy who spends his spare time trying to get all the achievements on Grand Theft Auto 4.
- chromatic 16y ago
  That sounds like a false dilemma.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Perhaps, but then again so is "Become an Eagle Scout" vs "be a loser your whole life".
    - mikeryan 16y ago
      Is that how you read Mike's response? Because I thought he took pains to clearly not tie those two together.
      - sprout 16y ago
        Somewhat crassly stated, but Mike's argument is equally false, even if more polite. Basically, Mike's argument was "either you're afraid of failure and you need to suck it up, or you need to quit because you don't belong in scouts."
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  The goals of BSA are many and varied; boys don't persue arbitrary goals at all. And Eagle Scout is awarded to recognize those that go above and beyond; the Scout must perform an important service to the community that is important to him. He gets to choose.
- moultano 16y ago
  The things you learn and the skills you demonstrate to become an Eagle scout are _Not_ arbitrary. To earn it you have to demonstrate that you can lead a group of people to do something useful, contribute meaningfully to your community, know basic first aid, and have some skill in the outdoors. The tangible awards for this are the skills and experience themselves.
samdk 16y ago
I'd argue that if you don't focus your efforts on the things that really matter to you you're going to have a tough time transcending mediocrity for entirely different reasons. If you avoid all activities and requirements that you don't enjoy then yes, you're going to have a very hard time becoming good at anything. But if you take on every challenge that you can just because it's there, you're going to fail at most of them and have a much harder time with those you really do care about.
dagw 16y ago
I've been involved in boy scouts from when I could join cub scouts until I turned 20. I really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it, but never made any attempt to get Eagle. For me that simply wasn't what scouting was about. Sure when I was young getting badges and awards was cool and all, but from about 16 or 17 I lost all interest in that. From then on, for me, scouts was about teaching younger kids cool things I knew and outdoor activities. That was what I enjoyed and that that's what I dedicated my time to, and as a result I never, officially, got beyond Star. Was I Doing It Wrong, perhaps according to the official measurements. But I fail to see how I or my troop would have been better off by me grinding merit badges instead of teaching kids how to climb.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  No, you were doing it very, very right. Scouts has room for all kinds - Camping Scouts, Fellowship Scouts, OA Scouts, Merit Badge Scouts, Leadership Scouts. Eagle is just one path. And btw National Standard is to get every Scout to 1st Class.
Oxryly 16y ago
Excellent observation. I'd go a step further and say you'll wind up avoiding your own self in the process -- which in turn will make you miserable. The Boy Scouts certainly helped me face my self directly, almost always against my preferences. Now if they (and I) had done a better job at prioritizing my time and dealing with my "atheism" I'd have made Eagle. Of course I would have felt guilty supporting an organization that essentially required a certain form of religious belief and also discriminated against gays. Their message and practice is flawed but still contains quite a bit of wisdom.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

Eagle Scout does not manufacture a committed, resourceful individual; it recognizes one.

whyenot 16y ago
As long as you aren't gay, atheist or agnostic. If you are, the BSA doesn't want anything to do with you.
- fr0man 16y ago
  You can be a youth member and be gay as long as you're willing to live as a second class citizen, i.e. not avow that you're homosexual or hold a youth leadership position. They don't specifically bar homosexuals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membershi... Because, you know, nothing is better for our youth than making them deny who they are and teaching them they aren't worthy of being in a leadership position because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    More accurately: lack of religeous beliefs?
  - whyenot 16y ago
    It is effectively a ban. You can not advance through the ranks as a boy scout if you can not hold leadership positions. As an example, here are the requirements for eagle scout. Check requirement #4. http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank7.asp Compare to the girl scouts who have held this position on sexual orientation since 1991: As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference.
    - enjo 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago

I had no idea Mike Rowe was this engaged with the Boy Scouts. He has a really interesting life story. And _Dirty Jobs_ is one of the very few decent arguments for paying for cable. Follow the link to the form letter he sends Eagle Scouts; it's just as good as this post is.

Splines 16y ago

Every time I see something from Mike Rowe I'm always impressed. From Dirty Jobs, his TED talk, this email correspondence, and even his early days as a QVC presenter, he has always exuded a sense of class and gentility.

trafficlight 16y ago
It's okay. You can say it. You have a man-crush on Mike Rowe. Don't worry, so do I.

slamo 16y ago

My headline would have been different: Mike Rowe arbitrarily defines success, denounces otherwise high achieving boy for not meeting it.

Semiapies 16y ago
Blogger writes post requiring complete reading to understand; HN reader TL;DRs and does not.
jggube 16y ago
You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way. Sounds like a pretty solid definition of success to me.

Aaronontheweb 16y ago

One of the biggest regrets I have from my childhood was leaving the Boy Scouts when I had to make a hard choice between attending the annual week of summer camp (was made mandatory for advancement when I became a freshman in high school) and hell week for football, both of which occurred at the same time every year (late August two weeks before school started.) I owe a lot of my character today, particularly my mental toughness, to what I experienced playing football, but I still regret making the choice to abandon Scouting and never reaching Eagle. I suspect I'd regret not playing football had I stuck with Scouting instead. Oh well, life's about choices and their consequences.

CamperBob 16y ago
Or, you know, you could move past both Scouting and high school football.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  If "move past" means learning nothing from your life...
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    Which it doesn't.

jbarciauskas 16y ago

So, my question is, what is the problem with enjoying an activity as a social activity rather than a goal-achievement activity? If he chooses to spend his social time in a softball league rather than Scouts, is he doomed to mediocrity for not training to become the best softball player he is capable of? Why didn't this conversation end at "sounds like Eagle Scout isn't for you, just make sure to be really good at something else"? The ultimatum of "Eagle or quit" is nonsensical to me. This person clearly has dedication to other parts of his life, and Scouts is just a soical outlet. Why should he give that up, how does that imply impending mediocrity?

caryme 16y ago
I completely agree. I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure, or at least that I gave up, when I say no. But I don't feel that way myself. I had different priorities and different goals within scouting. For example, I could have done an Eagle project the summer after high school, but I left immediately to be a camp counselor at the church camp - something I had dreamed of doing since the third grade. Had I stayed home, I would have had the time to go through with a project. But I had different priorities. I wasn't in scouting for the Eagle. I was in it for the friends and for the adventure. I hiked, biked, and canoed. I helped my troop become more scout-led. I didn't do it halfway.
- SwellJoe 16y ago
  I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure That's weird. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'm an Eagle Scout (I'm not; I dropped out at Life, a couple of badges and a project shy of Eagle) in the nearly two decades since I quit. I must not hang out with the kind of people that care about Boy Scout ranks.
chrisa 16y ago
While I certainly agree that it doesn’t imply mediocrity, my experience in Boy Scouts is this: While there are exceptions (see dagw’s comment below for example), I have found that scouts who aren’t interested in getting to eagle are a net drain on the troop. Boy Scouts is an organization that is about fun, yes, but it is also geared toward learning and building character. When a scout isn’t actively working toward a goal (the next rank, a new merit badge, etc), they have little else to do but distract others. I understand that not all activities have to be goal oriented, but I do have a problem when the behavior of un-interested scouts affects others in a negative way. On the other hand, if you’re committed to the troop and activities, but are simply not interested in eagle, (as many here have pointed out) – then yes, I agree.

dkarl 16y ago

Given your excellence in school, your commitment to physical fitness, and your desire for higher education, that confession strikes me as a bit out of context. I mean, why would a guy who’s so passionate and deliberate about everything else in his life invest his time doing something for which he has so little enthusiasm? Damn, can't you do anything just for fun anymore? Enthusiasm for an activity has to manifest itself as enthusiasm for earning the highest possible certification? My advice? Quit Scouting today. Or, quit pretending not to care. Because the short answer to your question goes like this – You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way. People do all kinds of things halfway. It's inevitable. You're going to cook halfway, dress halfway, play sports halfway, appreciate movies and art and books halfway, train your pets halfway, and blog halfway. Sure, you can pick one or two of those and do them in a fully-assed way, but what about the rest? Are you just going to give them up? Or are you going to hide behind the fact that nobody has instituted a system of ranking and achievements? Well, did you know you can be tested and certified on your ability to taste wine? Better stop drinking wine! Better not teach your dog to sit unless you're committed to earning the highest AKC obedience titles. Not only would you be half-assed, you'd have a half-assed dog, too. (My question: can you keep the dog as long as you don't train it, or does just having a non-obedience-certified dog make you half-assed?) American tennis players, did you know that the US Tennis Association sorts amateurs into numbered levels? Better stop playing tennis unless you're committed to maxing out! So you like to go hiking on weekends? Uh oh, there's adventure racing and orienteering... you'd better go indoors. You're doing the outdoors half-assed. Well, maybe he'd agree with me on that one.

minouye 16y ago
"The most valuable lesson I learned in Scouting, was not merely the importance of trying things I didn’t enjoy, it was the ability to learn how to enjoy those same things." Yes, we all do things halfway, but when you are fully committed to a task, a project, or a cause, so much more can be accomplished. I am an Eagle Scout and I certainly hated a lot of the scouting requirements. They seemed silly, and time-consuming, and frivilous--how many 14 year-old's spend hours weaving a basket?! However, I know a lot of people who got so close to achieving an Eagle rank but chose not to. Did it materially change their life? Obviously not, but a lot of them reflect back on it and think, 'I was so close, why didn't I try just slightly harder?' You don't have to have been involved in Scouting to know that feeling. "I was so close, if I only I had tried harder" is a feeling that sucks and that's what Mike Rowe is trying to tell this Scout.

kenjackson 16y ago

This ain't the MikeRoweSoft kid?! I wasted my time reading a letter from the guy from Dirty Jobs? I was kinda wondering why people were writing that kid letters.

protomyth 16y ago

“Everybody-Gets-a-Trophy” part is particularly rich. I still think the biggest problem with it is that children will not find what they are really good at / really enjoy because they are not allowed to fail and success is cheapened.

julius_geezer 16y ago

As someone who dropped out after 2nd Class (probably would've kept on to 1st but we moved), I'm with the kid. It took me forever to make 2nd Class because I had other commitments on Saturdays. But I had a bunch of friends in the troop. G.K. Chesterton somewhere wrote that "Everything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm with dkarl on this one.