6 ms·

The Wire was a good show for its time but it's already showing a lot of age. Badass gay character, humanized gangsters, contra-Reaganesque attitude to drugs, a

The Wire was a good show for its time but it's already showing a lot of age. Badass gay character, humanized gangsters, contra-Reaganesque attitude to drugs, aim at corruption and money, etc. were pretty great for its time, but now that a lot of media has caught up, the lackluster areas stick out a lot more. It's got liberal sensibilities, not leftist ones. For example, S2 is about the shipping container women. McNulty swears she won't treat them like a mere blip or statistic, but will remember their humanity. At the end of S2, they have a gag scene where McNulty goes "undercover" at a whorehouse, and gets serviced by some prostitutes, while everyone at base overhearing the mike goes "ooooh youuu McNulty". I think this shallow and circumscribed commitment to nominal values, not fully comprehending the extent to which they require a fundamental shift in approach, is pretty liberal. There's also plenty of blaming of teacher's unions for shutting down "innovative" approaches. All the issues chalked up to "capitalism" have to do with individual corruption and not the regular brutal application of market logic to human problems (eg: corrupt construction agencies wanting bribes vs. regular white citizens protecting their interests). but perhaps the most anti-leftist aspect of them all is how the show is utterly grim and hopeless and nothing ever changes. all radical initiatives are shut down and ruin lives, and it works more as a cautionary tale than an inspiration. if all media is propaganda, The Wire works as propaganda for obedient incrementalism, and decidedly against anything revolutionary.

davewritescode 9y ago
So you're big complaint about the wire is that it doesn't espouse leftist revolutionary values...got it.
dingbat 9y ago
> Badass gay character, humanized gangsters, contra-Reaganesque attitude to drugs, aim at corruption and money, etc. you must be pretty young to think these themes were revolutionary in the early 00's, and that the "media has caught up" to those concepts. you are correct that this show doesnt care about either leftist or liberal ideologies, but that doesnt mean its propaganda either way. its about depicting an arguably valid interpretation of reality wherein the individual cannot "win" vs. the system, no matter what system or institution or ideology that may be.
1123581321 9y ago
Interesting comment. I certainly don't think an inspiring portrayal of leftist politics would make for a realistic urban crime drama. I agree some little touches that you mentioned age, but the heart of the story could still be written today and it doesn't depend on the success of small comic scenes or flourishes of Omar.
komaromy 9y ago
> but perhaps the most anti-leftist aspect of them all is how the show is utterly grim and hopeless and nothing ever changes. all radical initiatives are shut down and ruin lives, and it works more as a cautionary tale than an inspiration. I think the Hamsterdam concept would be pretty easily implemented at the federal level, which was where it was ultimately shut down from in the show. It's unfortunate that our federal drug policy is now moving in the exact opposite direction.
rhizome 9y ago
There's also plenty of blaming of teacher's unions for shutting down "innovative" approaches I don't think I know the Baltimore education landscape of the last 20-30 years as well as you do, how did it actually happen?
grzm 9y ago
I'd encourage you to view the show through a less ideological lens. One of the compelling aspects of the show for me is that the characters are written as human, rather than some tropes. While you may not always agree with the actions they take, you can understand their motivations. And for the most part, they're not simple, by-the-book, characters. The Season 2 example you provide I think is a good example of this: McNulty is a flawed human (just as we—and all the characters on the Wire—are) and is fully capable of wanting to do right and sometimes not behaving perfectly, just as the people at the station. I think these reactions were quite realistic. Would McNulty have stopped the prostitutes? Would people hearing of the station had other reactions? I'm interested to know how you would have had it play out differently. Good art can allow us to reflect on the state of our humanity, just as you have here. Some art can be inspirational, but not all of it needs to be. I think the Wire does an exceptional job of illustrating how difficult it can be to fix real problems in some American cities.
- RodericDay 9y ago
  I still think it's a really good show! This stuff aside, it's a well developed drama with compelling characters and high production values. Even the politics themselves are better than the harrowing status quo in many places. I just think that people to easily bestow upon it the "best ever" distinction. edit: As for how it could have played out differently, I'm not sure. Maybe the madame scenes would have been cut altogether? I think The Shield does a way better job with its "McNulty" equivalent.
  - grzm 9y ago
    > I just think that people to easily bestow upon it the "best ever" distinction. Do you have other contenders? I personally avoid superlatives in general, so I would hesitate before using "best ever" in any context, but I can't think of other examples of American television that I personally would rate higher. Many I've talked to about the show feel similarly. While many tend to use superlatives more casually that I would, I don't think in this case it's necessarily a case of hyperbole.
    - 9y ago
cbanek 9y ago
> The Wire was a good show for its time but it's already showing a lot of age. One thing still true, the game still the game yo.
blackbagboys 9y ago
It would be impossible to make a realistic show that adhered strictly to a leftist teleology.
- grzm 9y ago
  It would be impossible to make a realistic show that adhered strictly to any teleology.
- matt4077 9y ago
  The West Wing :)
danso 9y ago
> Badass gay character Ironically, one of the big criticisms of the Wire is its lack of interesting or compelling female characters. I think I read in one of the behind-the-scenes books that David Simon's wife, Laura Lippmann, who was also a writer on the show, criticized/made fun of his use of the super-lesbian archetype (Detective Greggs).
monochromatic 9y ago
It's dated because it's insufficiently leftist? Ok.

davewritescode 9y ago

So you're big complaint about the wire is that it doesn't espouse leftist revolutionary values...got it.

dingbat 9y ago

> Badass gay character, humanized gangsters, contra-Reaganesque attitude to drugs, aim at corruption and money, etc. you must be pretty young to think these themes were revolutionary in the early 00's, and that the "media has caught up" to those concepts. you are correct that this show doesnt care about either leftist or liberal ideologies, but that doesnt mean its propaganda either way. its about depicting an arguably valid interpretation of reality wherein the individual cannot "win" vs. the system, no matter what system or institution or ideology that may be.

1123581321 9y ago

Interesting comment. I certainly don't think an inspiring portrayal of leftist politics would make for a realistic urban crime drama. I agree some little touches that you mentioned age, but the heart of the story could still be written today and it doesn't depend on the success of small comic scenes or flourishes of Omar.

komaromy 9y ago

> but perhaps the most anti-leftist aspect of them all is how the show is utterly grim and hopeless and nothing ever changes. all radical initiatives are shut down and ruin lives, and it works more as a cautionary tale than an inspiration. I think the Hamsterdam concept would be pretty easily implemented at the federal level, which was where it was ultimately shut down from in the show. It's unfortunate that our federal drug policy is now moving in the exact opposite direction.

rhizome 9y ago

There's also plenty of blaming of teacher's unions for shutting down "innovative" approaches I don't think I know the Baltimore education landscape of the last 20-30 years as well as you do, how did it actually happen?

grzm 9y ago

I'd encourage you to view the show through a less ideological lens. One of the compelling aspects of the show for me is that the characters are written as human, rather than some tropes. While you may not always agree with the actions they take, you can understand their motivations. And for the most part, they're not simple, by-the-book, characters. The Season 2 example you provide I think is a good example of this: McNulty is a flawed human (just as we—and all the characters on the Wire—are) and is fully capable of wanting to do right and sometimes not behaving perfectly, just as the people at the station. I think these reactions were quite realistic. Would McNulty have stopped the prostitutes? Would people hearing of the station had other reactions? I'm interested to know how you would have had it play out differently. Good art can allow us to reflect on the state of our humanity, just as you have here. Some art can be inspirational, but not all of it needs to be. I think the Wire does an exceptional job of illustrating how difficult it can be to fix real problems in some American cities.

RodericDay 9y ago
I still think it's a really good show! This stuff aside, it's a well developed drama with compelling characters and high production values. Even the politics themselves are better than the harrowing status quo in many places. I just think that people to easily bestow upon it the "best ever" distinction. edit: As for how it could have played out differently, I'm not sure. Maybe the madame scenes would have been cut altogether? I think The Shield does a way better job with its "McNulty" equivalent.
- grzm 9y ago
  > I just think that people to easily bestow upon it the "best ever" distinction. Do you have other contenders? I personally avoid superlatives in general, so I would hesitate before using "best ever" in any context, but I can't think of other examples of American television that I personally would rate higher. Many I've talked to about the show feel similarly. While many tend to use superlatives more casually that I would, I don't think in this case it's necessarily a case of hyperbole.
  - 9y ago

cbanek 9y ago

> The Wire was a good show for its time but it's already showing a lot of age. One thing still true, the game still the game yo.

blackbagboys 9y ago

It would be impossible to make a realistic show that adhered strictly to a leftist teleology.

grzm 9y ago
It would be impossible to make a realistic show that adhered strictly to any teleology.
matt4077 9y ago
The West Wing :)

danso 9y ago

> Badass gay character Ironically, one of the big criticisms of the Wire is its lack of interesting or compelling female characters. I think I read in one of the behind-the-scenes books that David Simon's wife, Laura Lippmann, who was also a writer on the show, criticized/made fun of his use of the super-lesbian archetype (Detective Greggs).

monochromatic 9y ago

It's dated because it's insufficiently leftist? Ok.