9 ms·

Amazon has made a change to the way it sells books, which may hurt publishers

graeme 9y ago
I wonder if this affects createspace books. I don't see how it would, but then maybe I'm missing an angle.
DanBC 9y ago
> Man Booker Prize nominees routinely sell as few as 3,000 copies. This was really surprising to me. They link to this article. http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-book-sales-what-counts-as-success-might-surprise-you http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-boo...
cynix 9y ago
> the big five publishers theorized that third-party sellers might be selling some of the free promotional copies… which have no such marking on their covers and often end up sold to bookstores like the Strand. If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then what's the problem? If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark them as not for sale. > Others have suggested that they might be buying books with minor cosmetic damage from warehouses… Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by the publishers too, so what's the problem?
- falcolas 9y ago
  > Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by the publishers Frequently, those copies are fraudulently written off as destroyed at the cost of the publisher; the publisher didn't make their money off the sale. > If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then what's the problem? Being sold in a mom&pop bookstore is a very different case than being sold through the biggest internet retailer. > If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark them as not for sale. Sometimes it's the authors who get the promotional copies and attempt to give them out to fans or friendly distributors as a method of marketing; some of whom are dishonest about their reasons for asking for promotional copies.
- billpollock 9y ago
  Not that simple.
dilemma 9y ago
This is a long article that confuses the issue. The root of the problem, if it even exists, is that some sellers sell bootleg copies on Amazon. That is what the article should be about rather than the buy box.
- KevinEldon 9y ago
  Do you have any evidence of this kind of copyright violation for books on Amazon? I can imagine it does happen, but if it happens at any sort of significant scale (say more than e-book piracy) the publishers or the author of this publisher-friendly article would have mentioned it.
  - dilemma 9y ago
    I don't, but the article posits that there are thousands of copies of a title sold that don't come from a publisher, so it is implied. They also mention promotional copies but that is no large quantity.
    - billpollock 9y ago
      at least 1500 copies in our case.
  - tolien 9y ago
    Here: http://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch.html http://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch....
  - ricardonunez 9y ago
    The one story I know is this one https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256. There have been a lot more. There are a few different issues the article doesn't touch.
  - billpollock 9y ago
    Yes.
hakanensari 9y ago
I'm wondering if part of the anxiety is about the used market spilling over into new - a distinction which to most is about the way a book looks and feels rather than its commercial provenance. Nothing really stops a book dealer to list a used book as new if it sufficiently looks like one. And as long as they have enough reputation clout on Amazon, they will short-circuit the publishers' sales chain and win the Buy Box.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Nothing really stops a book dealer to list a used book as new if it sufficiently looks like one. Nothing stops them from listing as new even if it doesn't look like one. Its not like anyone is examining the copy in person before buying on Amazon.
ricardobeat 9y ago
They offer no conclusion on how sellers can materialize thousands of copies of a book out of thin air. "Not a single cent goes to the publisher" can only be true if they are selling illegal copies printed somewhere else, which I imagine would be extremely easy to spot. If they are buying 1) "slightly used" books, the publisher and author have already been paid, 2) "not for resale" copies, why on earth would the publisher print _thousands_ of promotional copies? Such nonsense.
- kevingadd 9y ago
  Illegal copies are also a rampant problem on Amazon, though, so this increases the odds that the big Buy Button ships you a counterfeit. https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e... https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch...
  - billpollock 9y ago
    We've had at least 5 books counterfeited on Amazon. In each case the counterfeit inventory replaced our inventory and owned the Buy button.
- manmal 9y ago
  I think it would not be that hard to counterfeit a Harry Potter book, print a few thousand copies in China and put them on Amazon. Or is there some way of counterfeit proofing in books?
  - KevinEldon 9y ago
    I think it would be difficult. You'd have to get copies of the book's content and cover art that are suitable for print and then find a press willing and able to create copies that are indistinguishable from the originals. Now you have bought and paid for 10k or more books sitting in China or some place where you think you're mostly safe from copyright enforcement. You'll have to ship those books to Amazon's warehouse and hope Amazon doesn't realize what you're doing and hope the publisher doesn't look for these kinds of scams and have your inventory confiscated while they file criminal charges against you. You're also hoping that consumers don't realize their copies aren't the same quality they expected and start negatively reviewing you... and for how much profit?
sfifs 9y ago
This article reads like a poorly researched PR piece for the publishing industry. They're not really saying anywhere.the books by third party sellers are fake. Then they must have come from the publisher legitimately one way or the other and hence the publisher must have been paid. The only difference is how much he was paid. It's likely some country branch of the publisher cut a deal to unload some books for cheap to a distributor and that's coming back to Amazon. So the publishing executive in that market made lot's of revenue in his scorecard at the cost of cannibalizing Amazon account seller's business. This sort of thing is quite common and perfectly legal.
- DanBC 9y ago
  There's a potential of grey market imports. If a publisher has a lower quality, but much cheaper, product for one market, and a higher quality more expensive product for the US market, buyers should have the choice, but should also know what they're buying.
  - merb 9y ago
    I would not be happy if a publisher would make such things. I mean there's mostly a hardcover and a paperback version, yes. but if they actually make books in lower qualities for others markets, that would be hilarious. why should somebody from a poorer market only have access to bad quality products? isn't this some sort of discrimination?
    - danmaz74 9y ago
      > why should somebody from a poorer market only have access to bad quality products It would be even worse if customers in the poorer market only had access to products they can't afford. The important thing IMHO is that the lower quality version also has a lower price, and that, in case of re-import, there's a way for customers to know.
    - blackoil 9y ago
      In a country like India, we had eastern economy and similarly other subsidized editions. If a book costs 100 USD, it is beyond range of most students, as this crosses their monthly budget. So, while arbitrary these barriers have the place till we have movement of people.
avh02 9y ago
clickbait title intensifies.
ClassyJacket 9y ago
This clickbait title explains nothing.
atemerev 9y ago
Publishers' lament. Good riddance.
- LogicX 9y ago
  Exactly... in a world where you can self publish both print and electronic versions of books... are publishers adding enough value to justify protection of their profits?
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Publishers pay authors up front to write novels. They also provide quality editors and marketing on their dime. So, yes, there is absolutely value in what the publishers provide.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    They're adding a lot of value. Part of my novel-buying process on Amazon is checking the publisher, specifically because self-published books have such awful writing.
    - atemerev 9y ago
      You didn't like "The Martian", did you?
      - thaumasiotes 9y ago
        No, I didn't, but in that case the problem wasn't the horrible writing I complain about above. "The Martian" has much better writing than the general run of self-published novels.
  - billpollock 9y ago
    Some publishers do, some publishers don't.
  - joemi 9y ago
    This argument is akin to saying "now that anyone can publish a blog or tweet, what's the point of news places like NYT or WSJ?" I don't believe either negates the needs or benefits of the other. In addition to what others have mentioned, with publishers (just like with established news organizations), you can (usually) expect a certain level of standards and thoroughness with the end product, at the cost of fewer and less diverse works. With self-publishing, you can find end products that might have been passed over by publishers for various reasons (not a big enough market, too controversial, etc). Each is beneficial, each is necessary.
mcphage 9y ago
The only thing that seems off is the Buy Box Winner being out of stock. If they're out of stock, some other seller should be the Buy Box Winner. Otherwise it misleadingly looks like everyone is out of stock for that title—which is bad for buyers, bad for sellers, and bad for Amazon.
- AnssiH 9y ago
  Indeed. This seems somewhat similar to the issue that often the buy box seller does not ship to the buyer country (but some other seller, e.g. Amazon, would ship).
coroxout 9y ago
I don't know if this is only new for books or new in the US or if I somehow hit a trial of this feature, but I've had this buying a music CD from Amazon UK. I hit the usual default "Buy" button in the buy box and the CD was shipped from a third-party seller in another country. Kind of annoying as it was a Father's Day gift (so the order must have been about a year ago) and the unexpected international shipping meant it didn't arrive until after the day itself. I'm pretty sure there'd been no indication of this on the sale page.
ilamont 9y ago
Indie publisher here. I am also a board member of the Independent Book Publishers Association, which has come out against the new Buy Box policy. The big question on everyone's mind is where the new third-party books are coming from. Here are my personal views: * Many publishers suspect that the books are not actually new, but rather are used from various sources and are being sold as new. However, there hasn't been any proof that this is a widespread phenomenon. OTOH, there is practically no barrier to a seller making a "new" claim for a used book. The main disincentive is Amazon might punish them if it's discovered or enough readers complain. * Review copies are being sold as new. I know two publishers who have received complaints about this from readers who purchased a "new" book from Amazon, only to discover that it was marked as an ARC or not for resale. * Third-party sellers are getting their hands on overstock or returns from retailers that were supposed to be pulped or destroyed. I have heard of two businesses that have operated in this realm, but both appear to be legitimately purchasing overstock as opposed to buying copies that should have been destroyed. * Third-party sellers are accessing wholesale channels intended for retailers or libraries. These sales are legit, but publishers get less money from them. See the Createspace thread below (first two pages) for a discussion of one case. * Some of the new books are pirated. This is my personal view that is not widely shared, but I believe this is going to be a big problem going forward, based not only on two documented cases this year (Dave Burgess' pirated copy of "Teach Like a Pirate" and Bill Pollock's "Python for Kids", see links below) but also because it's such a widespread phenomenon elsewhere on Amazon. It's a matter of time before pirates discover it's open season for books, and more and more will rush in using cheap short-run digital or print on demand to own the buy box. There may be other sources as well. If the books are used and are being sold as such, it's accessed through a wholesaler, or it's overstock sourced legitimately, that's not an issue. But publishers should be concerned if used books and review copies are being sold as new, or pirates are eating their lunch. 1. https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080 https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080 2. https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 3. https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76847 https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76... ETA: Wholesale channels bullet and "new" claims details
- UnoriginalGuy 9y ago
crazygringo 9y ago
Soooo... publishers should start labeling their promotional copies as "not for resale" and problem solved? At least from what the article describes, it really does seem that simple. And this doesn't even appear to have anything to do with Amazon specifically -- the article even states these promotional copies "often end up sold to bookstores like the Strand".
- billpollock 9y ago
  Counterfeiting is the real problem.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wdb 9y ago
Yes, lately I have bought books at Amazon that were not originals. Even now they sell print outs of ebook only books. Really annoying, takes more time now to make sure you get proper ones.
Havoc 9y ago
Seems like a natural progression in the survival of the fittest sense.
reeddavid 9y ago
This was a terrible article. The complaints have nothing to do with the buy box. I can think of three ways that "publishers aren't getting paid" could be true: 1) Books are stolen 2) Books are counterfeit 3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review copies None of these is a problem with the Amazon buy box. We don't complain that "Samsung doesn't get paid when people buy Samsing TVs at Best Buy" and I don't see how this is any different. I think Amazon is guilty of a lot of shady practices that harm businesses (like co-mingling potentially counterfeit Fulfillment by Amazon inventory with Ships From and Sold by Amazon.com inventory). But this article makes no sense.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
  > 1) Books are stolen > 2) Books are counterfeit > 3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review copies > None of these is a problem with the Amazon buy box. Perhaps in your experience, but that's not the case. Counterfeiting, at the very least, is an actual current problem on Amazon for all sorts of items, including books. Used, stolen or grey-market books are also not beyond the pale for unscrupulous sellers.
  - reeddavid 9y ago
    Yes, Amazon definitely has a counterfeit problem. But that's not a problem with the buy box. If it were, then Amazon could say to publishers, "We fixed the counterfeit book problem, now customers have to click on another link to buy fakes from third party sellers." But putting counterfeits 2 clicks away instead of one click away isn't actually a solution. There's a lot to criticize Amazon for. I just thought the linked Vox article was incredibly terrible reporting.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
      That it isn't a problem with the buy box per se does not mean that them changing how the buy box works isn't hurting publishers.
- billpollock 9y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
Isn't selling used goods, but not clearly labelling them as such, potentially illegal in some jurisdictions?
yellowapple 9y ago
This only seems to hurt publishers (and maybe consumers, depending on how the Buy Box algorithm is implemented/designed). This also happens to be a boon for third-party resellers. My grandpa is actually one such possible beneficiary of this (though I don't think he would normally be the default for various reasons). In his retirement, he volunteers with a fundraising organization that supports his county's library by reselling donated books; cheaper books are usually sold by the bag in "book sales" (held adjacent to the library itself), but my grandpa's specialty is actually the Amazon storefront, through which the more expensive books are sold. Since there's no acquisition cost (they're donated), each book can be sold at prices way lower than they could be by for-profit sellers while still pulling in the same or similar net income. It sounds like the Buy Box algorithm factors in whether a book is consistently in stock, however, which is problematic for him (since nearly all his sales are one-off), and it probably doesn't include non-new products. It's still potentially beneficial if he gets, say, a pallet of new college textbooks or something (which hasn't happened yet AFAIK, but hey, one can dream, right?).

I wonder if this affects createspace books. I don't see how it would, but then maybe I'm missing an angle.

> Man Booker Prize nominees routinely sell as few as 3,000 copies. This was really surprising to me. They link to this article. http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-book-sales-what-counts-as-success-might-surprise-you http://www.npr.org/2015/09/19/441459103/when-it-comes-to-boo...

cynix 9y ago

> the big five publishers theorized that third-party sellers might be selling some of the free promotional copies… which have no such marking on their covers and often end up sold to bookstores like the Strand. If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then what's the problem? If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark them as not for sale. > Others have suggested that they might be buying books with minor cosmetic damage from warehouses… Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by the publishers too, so what's the problem?

falcolas 9y ago
> Presumably these slightly damaged books were originally printed and sold by the publishers Frequently, those copies are fraudulently written off as destroyed at the cost of the publisher; the publisher didn't make their money off the sale. > If these promotional copies already being sold by other bookstores then what's the problem? Being sold in a mom&pop bookstore is a very different case than being sold through the biggest internet retailer. > If they shouldn't be sold then the publishers should clearly mark them as not for sale. Sometimes it's the authors who get the promotional copies and attempt to give them out to fans or friendly distributors as a method of marketing; some of whom are dishonest about their reasons for asking for promotional copies.
billpollock 9y ago
Not that simple.

dilemma 9y ago

This is a long article that confuses the issue. The root of the problem, if it even exists, is that some sellers sell bootleg copies on Amazon. That is what the article should be about rather than the buy box.

KevinEldon 9y ago
Do you have any evidence of this kind of copyright violation for books on Amazon? I can imagine it does happen, but if it happens at any sort of significant scale (say more than e-book piracy) the publishers or the author of this publisher-friendly article would have mentioned it.
- dilemma 9y ago
  I don't, but the article posits that there are thousands of copies of a title sold that don't come from a publisher, so it is implied. They also mention promotional copies but that is no large quantity.
  - billpollock 9y ago
    at least 1500 copies in our case.
- tolien 9y ago
  Here: http://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch.html http://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch....
- ricardonunez 9y ago
  The one story I know is this one https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256. There have been a lot more. There are a few different issues the article doesn't touch.
- billpollock 9y ago
  Yes.

hakanensari 9y ago

I'm wondering if part of the anxiety is about the used market spilling over into new - a distinction which to most is about the way a book looks and feels rather than its commercial provenance. Nothing really stops a book dealer to list a used book as new if it sufficiently looks like one. And as long as they have enough reputation clout on Amazon, they will short-circuit the publishers' sales chain and win the Buy Box.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> Nothing really stops a book dealer to list a used book as new if it sufficiently looks like one. Nothing stops them from listing as new even if it doesn't look like one. Its not like anyone is examining the copy in person before buying on Amazon.

ricardobeat 9y ago

They offer no conclusion on how sellers can materialize thousands of copies of a book out of thin air. "Not a single cent goes to the publisher" can only be true if they are selling illegal copies printed somewhere else, which I imagine would be extremely easy to spot. If they are buying 1) "slightly used" books, the publisher and author have already been paid, 2) "not for resale" copies, why on earth would the publisher print _thousands_ of promotional copies? Such nonsense.

kevingadd 9y ago
Illegal copies are also a rampant problem on Amazon, though, so this increases the odds that the big Buy Button ships you a counterfeit. https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e5fb https://www.ft.com/content/5dba91b0-e1c7-11e6-8405-9e5580d6e... https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch.html https://www.inc.com/sonya-mann/amazon-counterfeits-no-starch...
- billpollock 9y ago
  We've had at least 5 books counterfeited on Amazon. In each case the counterfeit inventory replaced our inventory and owned the Buy button.
manmal 9y ago
I think it would not be that hard to counterfeit a Harry Potter book, print a few thousand copies in China and put them on Amazon. Or is there some way of counterfeit proofing in books?
- KevinEldon 9y ago
  I think it would be difficult. You'd have to get copies of the book's content and cover art that are suitable for print and then find a press willing and able to create copies that are indistinguishable from the originals. Now you have bought and paid for 10k or more books sitting in China or some place where you think you're mostly safe from copyright enforcement. You'll have to ship those books to Amazon's warehouse and hope Amazon doesn't realize what you're doing and hope the publisher doesn't look for these kinds of scams and have your inventory confiscated while they file criminal charges against you. You're also hoping that consumers don't realize their copies aren't the same quality they expected and start negatively reviewing you... and for how much profit?

sfifs 9y ago

This article reads like a poorly researched PR piece for the publishing industry. They're not really saying anywhere.the books by third party sellers are fake. Then they must have come from the publisher legitimately one way or the other and hence the publisher must have been paid. The only difference is how much he was paid. It's likely some country branch of the publisher cut a deal to unload some books for cheap to a distributor and that's coming back to Amazon. So the publishing executive in that market made lot's of revenue in his scorecard at the cost of cannibalizing Amazon account seller's business. This sort of thing is quite common and perfectly legal.

DanBC 9y ago
There's a potential of grey market imports. If a publisher has a lower quality, but much cheaper, product for one market, and a higher quality more expensive product for the US market, buyers should have the choice, but should also know what they're buying.
- merb 9y ago
  I would not be happy if a publisher would make such things. I mean there's mostly a hardcover and a paperback version, yes. but if they actually make books in lower qualities for others markets, that would be hilarious. why should somebody from a poorer market only have access to bad quality products? isn't this some sort of discrimination?
  - danmaz74 9y ago
    > why should somebody from a poorer market only have access to bad quality products It would be even worse if customers in the poorer market only had access to products they can't afford. The important thing IMHO is that the lower quality version also has a lower price, and that, in case of re-import, there's a way for customers to know.
  - blackoil 9y ago
    In a country like India, we had eastern economy and similarly other subsidized editions. If a book costs 100 USD, it is beyond range of most students, as this crosses their monthly budget. So, while arbitrary these barriers have the place till we have movement of people.

avh02 9y ago

clickbait title intensifies.

ClassyJacket 9y ago

This clickbait title explains nothing.

atemerev 9y ago

Publishers' lament. Good riddance.

LogicX 9y ago
Exactly... in a world where you can self publish both print and electronic versions of books... are publishers adding enough value to justify protection of their profits?
- falcolas 9y ago
  Publishers pay authors up front to write novels. They also provide quality editors and marketing on their dime. So, yes, there is absolutely value in what the publishers provide.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  They're adding a lot of value. Part of my novel-buying process on Amazon is checking the publisher, specifically because self-published books have such awful writing.
  - atemerev 9y ago
    You didn't like "The Martian", did you?
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      No, I didn't, but in that case the problem wasn't the horrible writing I complain about above. "The Martian" has much better writing than the general run of self-published novels.
- billpollock 9y ago
  Some publishers do, some publishers don't.
- joemi 9y ago
  This argument is akin to saying "now that anyone can publish a blog or tweet, what's the point of news places like NYT or WSJ?" I don't believe either negates the needs or benefits of the other. In addition to what others have mentioned, with publishers (just like with established news organizations), you can (usually) expect a certain level of standards and thoroughness with the end product, at the cost of fewer and less diverse works. With self-publishing, you can find end products that might have been passed over by publishers for various reasons (not a big enough market, too controversial, etc). Each is beneficial, each is necessary.

mcphage 9y ago

The only thing that seems off is the Buy Box Winner being out of stock. If they're out of stock, some other seller should be the Buy Box Winner. Otherwise it misleadingly looks like everyone is out of stock for that title—which is bad for buyers, bad for sellers, and bad for Amazon.

AnssiH 9y ago
Indeed. This seems somewhat similar to the issue that often the buy box seller does not ship to the buyer country (but some other seller, e.g. Amazon, would ship).

coroxout 9y ago

I don't know if this is only new for books or new in the US or if I somehow hit a trial of this feature, but I've had this buying a music CD from Amazon UK. I hit the usual default "Buy" button in the buy box and the CD was shipped from a third-party seller in another country. Kind of annoying as it was a Father's Day gift (so the order must have been about a year ago) and the unexpected international shipping meant it didn't arrive until after the day itself. I'm pretty sure there'd been no indication of this on the sale page.

ilamont 9y ago

Indie publisher here. I am also a board member of the Independent Book Publishers Association, which has come out against the new Buy Box policy. The big question on everyone's mind is where the new third-party books are coming from. Here are my personal views: * Many publishers suspect that the books are not actually new, but rather are used from various sources and are being sold as new. However, there hasn't been any proof that this is a widespread phenomenon. OTOH, there is practically no barrier to a seller making a "new" claim for a used book. The main disincentive is Amazon might punish them if it's discovered or enough readers complain. * Review copies are being sold as new. I know two publishers who have received complaints about this from readers who purchased a "new" book from Amazon, only to discover that it was marked as an ARC or not for resale. * Third-party sellers are getting their hands on overstock or returns from retailers that were supposed to be pulped or destroyed. I have heard of two businesses that have operated in this realm, but both appear to be legitimately purchasing overstock as opposed to buying copies that should have been destroyed. * Third-party sellers are accessing wholesale channels intended for retailers or libraries. These sales are legit, but publishers get less money from them. See the Createspace thread below (first two pages) for a discussion of one case. * Some of the new books are pirated. This is my personal view that is not widely shared, but I believe this is going to be a big problem going forward, based not only on two documented cases this year (Dave Burgess' pirated copy of "Teach Like a Pirate" and Bill Pollock's "Python for Kids", see links below) but also because it's such a widespread phenomenon elsewhere on Amazon. It's a matter of time before pirates discover it's open season for books, and more and more will rush in using cheap short-run digital or print on demand to own the buy box. There may be other sources as well. If the books are used and are being sold as such, it's accessed through a wholesaler, or it's overstock sourced legitimately, that's not an issue. But publishers should be concerned if used books and review copies are being sold as new, or pirates are eating their lunch. 1. https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080 https://twitter.com/burgessdave/status/849039943561134080 2. https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 https://twitter.com/billpollock/status/844030960333152256 3. https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76847 https://forums.createspace.com/en/community/message/76847#76... ETA: Wholesale channels bullet and "new" claims details

UnoriginalGuy 9y ago

crazygringo 9y ago

Soooo... publishers should start labeling their promotional copies as "not for resale" and problem solved? At least from what the article describes, it really does seem that simple. And this doesn't even appear to have anything to do with Amazon specifically -- the article even states these promotional copies "often end up sold to bookstores like the Strand".

billpollock 9y ago
Counterfeiting is the real problem.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wdb 9y ago

Yes, lately I have bought books at Amazon that were not originals. Even now they sell print outs of ebook only books. Really annoying, takes more time now to make sure you get proper ones.

Havoc 9y ago

Seems like a natural progression in the survival of the fittest sense.

reeddavid 9y ago

This was a terrible article. The complaints have nothing to do with the buy box. I can think of three ways that "publishers aren't getting paid" could be true: 1) Books are stolen 2) Books are counterfeit 3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review copies None of these is a problem with the Amazon buy box. We don't complain that "Samsung doesn't get paid when people buy Samsing TVs at Best Buy" and I don't see how this is any different. I think Amazon is guilty of a lot of shady practices that harm businesses (like co-mingling potentially counterfeit Fulfillment by Amazon inventory with Ships From and Sold by Amazon.com inventory). But this article makes no sense.

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
> 1) Books are stolen > 2) Books are counterfeit > 3) Books were purchased through "unauthorized" channels, e.g. free review copies > None of these is a problem with the Amazon buy box. Perhaps in your experience, but that's not the case. Counterfeiting, at the very least, is an actual current problem on Amazon for all sorts of items, including books. Used, stolen or grey-market books are also not beyond the pale for unscrupulous sellers.
- reeddavid 9y ago
  Yes, Amazon definitely has a counterfeit problem. But that's not a problem with the buy box. If it were, then Amazon could say to publishers, "We fixed the counterfeit book problem, now customers have to click on another link to buy fakes from third party sellers." But putting counterfeits 2 clicks away instead of one click away isn't actually a solution. There's a lot to criticize Amazon for. I just thought the linked Vox article was incredibly terrible reporting.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
    That it isn't a problem with the buy box per se does not mean that them changing how the buy box works isn't hurting publishers.
billpollock 9y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago

Isn't selling used goods, but not clearly labelling them as such, potentially illegal in some jurisdictions?

yellowapple 9y ago

This only seems to hurt publishers (and maybe consumers, depending on how the Buy Box algorithm is implemented/designed). This also happens to be a boon for third-party resellers. My grandpa is actually one such possible beneficiary of this (though I don't think he would normally be the default for various reasons). In his retirement, he volunteers with a fundraising organization that supports his county's library by reselling donated books; cheaper books are usually sold by the bag in "book sales" (held adjacent to the library itself), but my grandpa's specialty is actually the Amazon storefront, through which the more expensive books are sold. Since there's no acquisition cost (they're donated), each book can be sold at prices way lower than they could be by for-profit sellers while still pulling in the same or similar net income. It sounds like the Buy Box algorithm factors in whether a book is consistently in stock, however, which is problematic for him (since nearly all his sales are one-off), and it probably doesn't include non-new products. It's still potentially beneficial if he gets, say, a pallet of new college textbooks or something (which hasn't happened yet AFAIK, but hey, one can dream, right?).