9 ms·

Don't you see the connection? School fees are high partly because people can get free money to pay them. This of course screws the people who do not take the f

Don't you see the connection? School fees are high partly because people can get free money to pay them. This of course screws the people who do not take the free money by defaulting on loans.

StudentStuff 9y ago
Pretty much, why is an "inexpensive" college over $12k a year, with community colleges charging upwards of $7k a year? Seems crazy that the minimum you can spend on college is $40k, how is that accessible to the average person?
- misingnoglic 9y ago
  Financial aid, scholarships, and Federal loans (to an extent) help a lot for sure.
- tw04 9y ago
  Well, when you consider the average car price in the US was $33k in 2016, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
  - HarryHirsch 9y ago
    Average car or average new car?
  - notimetorelax 9y ago
    I doubt that students: 1. Have money to buy a new car 2. Can buy a new car every year
    - labster 9y ago
      They could buy a new car every year if they give up avocados. But you know college kids, they're all high on guac.
      - chillwaves 9y ago
        While that comment is ridiculous, I live where the cost of avocado spread on toast is around $6 after tax and a cup of coffee is around $4-5 after tax. The point is not entirely without merit. This is a major city but not like SF or somewhere crazy.
      - quickben 9y ago
        That was a story that I found outrageous. I recall my distant relative and another few of my friends got a house here in Toronto when they were 1/4 - 1/3 of what they are now. All while their salary being maybe 10% less. And then the older generation starts lecturing us... Completely disconnected with the current reality.
        randomdata 9y ago
        Of course, the houses were cheap back then because it was a petty undesirable place to be. Incremental change tends to be less noticeable if you see it every day, but as someone who visits Toronto just a handful of times per year it blows me away how much the city has changed in even just the last 10 years. Once old and run down neighbourhoods that I wouldn't ever want to live in are now highly desirable places to be. While I'm a bit too young to have much perspective on the situation 20-30 years ago, from what I've learned from those who lived in those neighbourhoods back then, it was even sadder and even scary to live there. I am surprised they were only 1/4 of what they are now.
        astrodust 9y ago
        > Once old and run down neighbourhoods that I wouldn't ever want to live in are now highly desirable places to be. There's never really been "scary" places to live in Toronto apart from a few neighbourhoods and housing projects. The places that people describe as scary just have a lot more "character" than other parts. You'll see mentally ill people on the street, those with physical disabilities, those who are dirt poor. In other parts of the city they're swept away or ignored. What you're describing is gentrification. Gentrification has happened.
  - StudentStuff 9y ago
    Yeah, unless my parents were in the top 2%, I doubt they'd be buying me a new car, let alone one near average cost. Instead, I get to use a value-free truck that I've welded back together! The joys of going to a commuter college. They did try to make it bikeable, by increasing parking costs and getting the county to reduce bus service. Oh, and the shower areas that UW/UWB/Seattle Colleges put into their new buildings to get LEED certified? Those are all locked up, cause screw bikers!
  - astrodust 9y ago
    Car prices have basically doubled from that era, while tuition has gone up five fold or more. That's the problem. Don't talk average car prices, some people spend stupid amounts of money on luxury vehicles. Look at the easily accessible, low-cost options like Kia and Hyundai. Those are half that price.
koolba 9y ago
Not partly, it's single handedly responsible for it.
- pmiller2 9y ago
  No. Pretty much every aspect of higher education is subject to some degree of Baumol's cost disease, as well.
  - danjayh 9y ago
    Not completely true. With the advent of ScanTron, Blackboard, online tests and quizzes, etc. much of the 'manual' work of teaching can be automated. Couple this with online classes, and one professor can run WAY more sections of a class than he could if he had to physically teach all of these classes. Even with in-person lectures and automated grading, labor productivity has increased dramatically in the last decade or two.
    - pmiller2 9y ago
      It is true that "running sections" has gotten more efficient, but that has nothing to do with education. Lectures have repeatedly been shown to be the worst method of teaching, and being able to speed up exam grading does nothing for that. It's also impossible for our lone professor to grade homework in a mega-section without an army of TAs (who cost money).
    - chongli 9y ago
      Baumol's cost disease concerns jobs whose labour productivity does not increase. It's obvious that teaching has increased in productivity. So where is the money going? Administration and capital expenditure. Universities compete for the top students. They spend huge amounts of money on elaborate buildings and fancy landscaping. They hire more and more staff to run these facilities and cater to students' every little need. The pool of top students is limited, making this a zero-sum game. This is why tuition keeps going up.
astrodust 9y ago
The connection is that as subsidies have dropped, fees have skyrocketed. When I was in school the tuition was $3500/yr. and I was in one of the most expensive programs in the whole university. I knew people in other programs paying as little as $2000/yr. Foreign students, who didn't receive any subsidies, paid about $19,000 for the same thing. That was the kind of money you could easily make over the summer even at a mundane job if you were careful about saving. Now for a basic arts degree get ready to fork out $10,000 or more. Some CS people are paying $16K a year. I'm not sure how you'd come up with that kind of scratch except with a student loan. Education is not something that should be driven by demand pricing. Of course there's demand for education, society demands it, and as such, society should help offset the costs. Would you rather live in a place where half the people had a university education or where half the people had barely finished high school?

Don't you see the connection? School fees are high partly because people can get free money to pay them. This of course screws the people who do not take the free money by defaulting on loans.

StudentStuff 9y ago

Pretty much, why is an "inexpensive" college over $12k a year, with community colleges charging upwards of $7k a year? Seems crazy that the minimum you can spend on college is $40k, how is that accessible to the average person?

misingnoglic 9y ago
Financial aid, scholarships, and Federal loans (to an extent) help a lot for sure.
tw04 9y ago
Well, when you consider the average car price in the US was $33k in 2016, it doesn't seem that unreasonable.
- HarryHirsch 9y ago
  Average car or average new car?
- notimetorelax 9y ago
  I doubt that students: 1. Have money to buy a new car 2. Can buy a new car every year
  - labster 9y ago
    They could buy a new car every year if they give up avocados. But you know college kids, they're all high on guac.
    - chillwaves 9y ago
      While that comment is ridiculous, I live where the cost of avocado spread on toast is around $6 after tax and a cup of coffee is around $4-5 after tax. The point is not entirely without merit. This is a major city but not like SF or somewhere crazy.
    - quickben 9y ago
      That was a story that I found outrageous. I recall my distant relative and another few of my friends got a house here in Toronto when they were 1/4 - 1/3 of what they are now. All while their salary being maybe 10% less. And then the older generation starts lecturing us... Completely disconnected with the current reality.
      - randomdata 9y ago
        Of course, the houses were cheap back then because it was a petty undesirable place to be. Incremental change tends to be less noticeable if you see it every day, but as someone who visits Toronto just a handful of times per year it blows me away how much the city has changed in even just the last 10 years. Once old and run down neighbourhoods that I wouldn't ever want to live in are now highly desirable places to be. While I'm a bit too young to have much perspective on the situation 20-30 years ago, from what I've learned from those who lived in those neighbourhoods back then, it was even sadder and even scary to live there. I am surprised they were only 1/4 of what they are now.
        astrodust 9y ago
        > Once old and run down neighbourhoods that I wouldn't ever want to live in are now highly desirable places to be. There's never really been "scary" places to live in Toronto apart from a few neighbourhoods and housing projects. The places that people describe as scary just have a lot more "character" than other parts. You'll see mentally ill people on the street, those with physical disabilities, those who are dirt poor. In other parts of the city they're swept away or ignored. What you're describing is gentrification. Gentrification has happened.
- StudentStuff 9y ago
  Yeah, unless my parents were in the top 2%, I doubt they'd be buying me a new car, let alone one near average cost. Instead, I get to use a value-free truck that I've welded back together! The joys of going to a commuter college. They did try to make it bikeable, by increasing parking costs and getting the county to reduce bus service. Oh, and the shower areas that UW/UWB/Seattle Colleges put into their new buildings to get LEED certified? Those are all locked up, cause screw bikers!
- astrodust 9y ago
  Car prices have basically doubled from that era, while tuition has gone up five fold or more. That's the problem. Don't talk average car prices, some people spend stupid amounts of money on luxury vehicles. Look at the easily accessible, low-cost options like Kia and Hyundai. Those are half that price.

koolba 9y ago

Not partly, it's single handedly responsible for it.

pmiller2 9y ago
No. Pretty much every aspect of higher education is subject to some degree of Baumol's cost disease, as well.
- danjayh 9y ago
  Not completely true. With the advent of ScanTron, Blackboard, online tests and quizzes, etc. much of the 'manual' work of teaching can be automated. Couple this with online classes, and one professor can run WAY more sections of a class than he could if he had to physically teach all of these classes. Even with in-person lectures and automated grading, labor productivity has increased dramatically in the last decade or two.
  - pmiller2 9y ago
    It is true that "running sections" has gotten more efficient, but that has nothing to do with education. Lectures have repeatedly been shown to be the worst method of teaching, and being able to speed up exam grading does nothing for that. It's also impossible for our lone professor to grade homework in a mega-section without an army of TAs (who cost money).
  - chongli 9y ago
    Baumol's cost disease concerns jobs whose labour productivity does not increase. It's obvious that teaching has increased in productivity. So where is the money going? Administration and capital expenditure. Universities compete for the top students. They spend huge amounts of money on elaborate buildings and fancy landscaping. They hire more and more staff to run these facilities and cater to students' every little need. The pool of top students is limited, making this a zero-sum game. This is why tuition keeps going up.

astrodust 9y ago

The connection is that as subsidies have dropped, fees have skyrocketed. When I was in school the tuition was $3500/yr. and I was in one of the most expensive programs in the whole university. I knew people in other programs paying as little as $2000/yr. Foreign students, who didn't receive any subsidies, paid about $19,000 for the same thing. That was the kind of money you could easily make over the summer even at a mundane job if you were careful about saving. Now for a basic arts degree get ready to fork out $10,000 or more. Some CS people are paying $16K a year. I'm not sure how you'd come up with that kind of scratch except with a student loan. Education is not something that should be driven by demand pricing. Of course there's demand for education, society demands it, and as such, society should help offset the costs. Would you rather live in a place where half the people had a university education or where half the people had barely finished high school?