4 ms·

I really hope this has some elements of satire in it.

bitL 9y ago
I wish... I worked for many companies everyone wanted to get in, and am still approached by big 4 ones G/FB/AP/AM (no MS as I rejected their offer already). What I observed is that consistently the ones that move to the top are the ones that master the practice of appearance, backstabbing, instigating fear of "missing the train" in superiors, throwing peers under the bus when fitting, betraying trust, sensing and adapting to prevailing winds, and most importantly making their superiors feel happy (I even experienced how a female colleague arranged a large deal with another company by having an affair with their VP, then got rewarded by becoming a head of a new office - I quit in disgust). It's Roman empire game all over again, software is no longer nerd/geek game (only if you wish to become a slave to psychos). If you still want to experience BS-free environment, move to bleeding edge AI/ML/robotics instead, that might have some 15 years future before it becomes another nightmare and all failed manager-types from other fields move in.
- marktangotango 9y ago
  I have noticed there is a stark contrast between those who are aware of the political environment and those who aren't. You seem to be hyper aware and 'plugged in' to hear these stories. Most developers just write code and post memes on the team slack/hipchat channel, completely oblivious to things going on around them. You should blog about some of this, changing names and obfuscating to "protect the innocent" so to speak. Also, read up on the Gervais Principal if you have not :)
  - bitL 9y ago
    Maybe it's that half of my family are politicians/lawyers, many of them leaning towards high-performing psychopathy and observing their behavior since being a child, their attempts to control me, expressing frustration I figured out their game and deny them, and then observing the same at work with those "ambitious persons", thinking anyone that does work is an idiot and should be handled like a child in a kindergarten, has something to do with me being hyperaware of what is going on around me. Frankly, one of my favorite things in the office was to emit bubbles of incomplete information to individual persons and observe who gets to know that piece of information, mapping alliances at work - they were oblivious of being tested, always triumphant they knew better and it was just fun to simulate a clueless person on my side just to understand how did they exactly operate. Try it, it's fun and a quite harmless "game people play".
    - cliffy 9y ago
      That second paragraph makes it sound like you picked up some of those psychopathic tendencies. It doesn't seem healthy to play those types of games with people, as harmless as it may be. Yes, the reality of life is that it's not a meritocracy or even within a stone's throw of it. There's a fine line between acknowledging the reality of it and succumbing to it. The abyss gazes also.
    - crush-n-spread 9y ago
      The comments you wrote in this thread really hit me. I truly appreciate your writing them down, and as other posters have said, writing a blog post about this would be really helpful to us. What you're saying is true. No one cares about the tech.
    - 52-6F-62 9y ago
      The Socratic method, isn't it?
  - psyc 9y ago
    Those "most developers" make it to Senior, and then stay there until they leave the company. I was at MS for 6 years, and can confirm much of what the GP said. Some people succeeded on merit, of course! But mostly any real success was extremely proportional to your skill at Machiavellian intrigue, and willingness to engage in it continually. That was surely the main game. Every org change or VP change was surrounded by a lot of Game of Thrones.
  - ekr 9y ago
    Exactly. I've also been burned out from an highly political environment, seeing how people raise to the top by basically following advice of the kind given in '48 laws of power'. But in a way it's been eye-opening, seeing this darwinian play go on, it confirms a lot of my theoretical understanding of evolutionary psychology, I find it quite fascinating. Not only that, but just observing it shows you how to improve in this area. But from what I've observed, most people are completely unaware of this side of things. A certain personality seems to be affected by this "issue", and that personality seems to correlate quite highly with caring deeply about their work, pursuing excellence in their field and so on. But alas, no-one has written more clearly on the topic/ psychology of corporate politics than Michal O. Church, I do recommend reading his essays for those affected by the issue (even though he has acquired a bad reputation around these places, probably because this is a sensitive issue).
- runT1ME 9y ago
  So you've never worked at those companies, and you are assuming what it's like to work there? And are you claiming you make 500% more than say a senior engineer at G/FB?Am?
  - bitL 9y ago
    I actually worked for better companies (with emotional attachment from developers), one top-end pioneering company that invited all developers at least once a year to Silicon Valley regardless of rank, and one in particular that refused G's acquisition multiple times and G was forced to make an alliance with it, and this company is loved by many at HN these days. Ranked higher on Glassdoor than G/FB, and more than 50% of departures to G returned back within a year, telling all of us it's not worth it. Also having friends at G expressing their jealousy at what I was working on that they could only dream about at G. Which is why I am targeted by those big 4 companies all the time, and couldn't care less.
    - runT1ME 9y ago
      Hah, so will you tell us the company? Sounds like some of us should be applying there... (though it did seem to make you not want to stay and be a developer there?)
      - bitL 9y ago
        You all should ;-) But I believe in independence and my inner motivation is that no company utilized my potential to more than 10% even if I was working on their most difficult problems and created things that got to #1 spot on HN no one has created before (and boredom sets in). Even G tried to motivate me by telling me they are now having "the most complex piece of software ever built" and I have a chance to work on it. Will talk to FB again shortly, will see what they want this time, but as I said, I don't really care.
bbcbasic 9y ago
Nope. It's not far from the truth.
marcosdumay 9y ago
Well, if it does, I can copy and paste it here under my name without the satire.

bitL 9y ago

I wish... I worked for many companies everyone wanted to get in, and am still approached by big 4 ones G/FB/AP/AM (no MS as I rejected their offer already). What I observed is that consistently the ones that move to the top are the ones that master the practice of appearance, backstabbing, instigating fear of "missing the train" in superiors, throwing peers under the bus when fitting, betraying trust, sensing and adapting to prevailing winds, and most importantly making their superiors feel happy (I even experienced how a female colleague arranged a large deal with another company by having an affair with their VP, then got rewarded by becoming a head of a new office - I quit in disgust). It's Roman empire game all over again, software is no longer nerd/geek game (only if you wish to become a slave to psychos). If you still want to experience BS-free environment, move to bleeding edge AI/ML/robotics instead, that might have some 15 years future before it becomes another nightmare and all failed manager-types from other fields move in.

marktangotango 9y ago
I have noticed there is a stark contrast between those who are aware of the political environment and those who aren't. You seem to be hyper aware and 'plugged in' to hear these stories. Most developers just write code and post memes on the team slack/hipchat channel, completely oblivious to things going on around them. You should blog about some of this, changing names and obfuscating to "protect the innocent" so to speak. Also, read up on the Gervais Principal if you have not :)
- bitL 9y ago
  Maybe it's that half of my family are politicians/lawyers, many of them leaning towards high-performing psychopathy and observing their behavior since being a child, their attempts to control me, expressing frustration I figured out their game and deny them, and then observing the same at work with those "ambitious persons", thinking anyone that does work is an idiot and should be handled like a child in a kindergarten, has something to do with me being hyperaware of what is going on around me. Frankly, one of my favorite things in the office was to emit bubbles of incomplete information to individual persons and observe who gets to know that piece of information, mapping alliances at work - they were oblivious of being tested, always triumphant they knew better and it was just fun to simulate a clueless person on my side just to understand how did they exactly operate. Try it, it's fun and a quite harmless "game people play".
  - cliffy 9y ago
    That second paragraph makes it sound like you picked up some of those psychopathic tendencies. It doesn't seem healthy to play those types of games with people, as harmless as it may be. Yes, the reality of life is that it's not a meritocracy or even within a stone's throw of it. There's a fine line between acknowledging the reality of it and succumbing to it. The abyss gazes also.
  - crush-n-spread 9y ago
    The comments you wrote in this thread really hit me. I truly appreciate your writing them down, and as other posters have said, writing a blog post about this would be really helpful to us. What you're saying is true. No one cares about the tech.
  - 52-6F-62 9y ago
    The Socratic method, isn't it?
- psyc 9y ago
  Those "most developers" make it to Senior, and then stay there until they leave the company. I was at MS for 6 years, and can confirm much of what the GP said. Some people succeeded on merit, of course! But mostly any real success was extremely proportional to your skill at Machiavellian intrigue, and willingness to engage in it continually. That was surely the main game. Every org change or VP change was surrounded by a lot of Game of Thrones.
- ekr 9y ago
  Exactly. I've also been burned out from an highly political environment, seeing how people raise to the top by basically following advice of the kind given in '48 laws of power'. But in a way it's been eye-opening, seeing this darwinian play go on, it confirms a lot of my theoretical understanding of evolutionary psychology, I find it quite fascinating. Not only that, but just observing it shows you how to improve in this area. But from what I've observed, most people are completely unaware of this side of things. A certain personality seems to be affected by this "issue", and that personality seems to correlate quite highly with caring deeply about their work, pursuing excellence in their field and so on. But alas, no-one has written more clearly on the topic/ psychology of corporate politics than Michal O. Church, I do recommend reading his essays for those affected by the issue (even though he has acquired a bad reputation around these places, probably because this is a sensitive issue).
runT1ME 9y ago
So you've never worked at those companies, and you are assuming what it's like to work there? And are you claiming you make 500% more than say a senior engineer at G/FB?Am?
- bitL 9y ago
  I actually worked for better companies (with emotional attachment from developers), one top-end pioneering company that invited all developers at least once a year to Silicon Valley regardless of rank, and one in particular that refused G's acquisition multiple times and G was forced to make an alliance with it, and this company is loved by many at HN these days. Ranked higher on Glassdoor than G/FB, and more than 50% of departures to G returned back within a year, telling all of us it's not worth it. Also having friends at G expressing their jealousy at what I was working on that they could only dream about at G. Which is why I am targeted by those big 4 companies all the time, and couldn't care less.
  - runT1ME 9y ago
    Hah, so will you tell us the company? Sounds like some of us should be applying there... (though it did seem to make you not want to stay and be a developer there?)
    - bitL 9y ago
      You all should ;-) But I believe in independence and my inner motivation is that no company utilized my potential to more than 10% even if I was working on their most difficult problems and created things that got to #1 spot on HN no one has created before (and boredom sets in). Even G tried to motivate me by telling me they are now having "the most complex piece of software ever built" and I have a chance to work on it. Will talk to FB again shortly, will see what they want this time, but as I said, I don't really care.

bbcbasic 9y ago

Nope. It's not far from the truth.

marcosdumay 9y ago

Well, if it does, I can copy and paste it here under my name without the satire.