7 ms·

Primarily? I'd say it's primarily caused by a disconnect between what the human vestibular system (your sense of balance and spatial orientation) is telling th

Primarily? I'd say it's primarily caused by a disconnect between what the human vestibular system (your sense of balance and spatial orientation) is telling the brain your body is doing vs the acceleration forces that your body is feeling vs what your eyes are telling you about what the body is doing. Or in other words - differences in movement/locomotion your eyes are seeing in HMD vs what your other senses are experiencing. Which probably would include latency as a subset.

Balgair 9y ago
The term in the medical literature you are looking for is 'Simulator Sickness'. There are 2 main theories on it's occurrence, one of which is the issues with the vestibular system. Wikipedia has a good introduction here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness To note, simulator sickness is not that new, we have been grappling with this for ~65 years since the first flight simulators. Despite the massive funding that the DoD has at it's fingertips, we have not found a cure for it OR there has not been a lot of work done to find a cure. However, it seems that more time in the simulator does help, thought it may then hinder actual flight performance. Also, the more experienced pilots had a higher occurrence of it. Again, it's not that well understood.
- falcolas 9y ago
  The same phenomenon (visual data conflicting with kinesthetic senses) causes vertigo; a common malady suffered by pilots flying through cloud banks. It's a major hurdle to overcome.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  Mayo Clinic has some recent work on hooking electrodes up to your vestibular system: http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-and-vmocion-introduce-technology-which-creates-the-sensation-of-motion-transforming-virtual-reality/ http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-and...
  - Balgair 9y ago
    Wow! Now that is some pretty cool stuff! Besides the VR issues, this has some really good applications to things like vertigo and Meniere's disease (unfortunately one of the 'suicide diseases'). Maybe this really will help people! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re%27s_disease#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re%27s_disease#...
    - wlesieutre 9y ago
      I'm slightly skeptical at the moment because there was a lot of buzz at the time of the press release, and then it's total silence for more than a year now. I tried to find any sort of hands on commentary to confirm that it actually works and exists, but no luck. Still, if it were a total scam I wouldn't think the Mayo Clinic would put their name on it.
  - cr0sh 9y ago
    Sometime in either the late 1990s or early-2000s (don't recall) there was a company that came out with a vestibular stimulator explicity for VR applications. They apparently sold units for game developers to use, along with a Windows API (hooked into Direct3D or DirectX - or something like that). It wasn't cheap - and ultimately they came into the market at the wrong time (dotcom crunch, and people didn't want VR stuff at the time anyway - the first VR winter was in full swing at that point).
hwillis 9y ago
>I'd say it's primarily caused by a disconnect between what the human vestibular system (your sense of balance and spatial orientation) is telling the brain your body is doing vs the acceleration forces that your body is feeling vs what your eyes are telling you about what the body is doing. The vestibular system has a prodigious amount of control over your life. I've got hearing damage and occasionally get vertigo spells (I carry dramamine in my wallet for emergencies). Every once in a while my balance sense just begins to swing around wildly. Sounds kind of cute. It will put you on your ass for 24-48 hours with zero possibility of doing anything. Even drinking water is hard. Without drugs the nausea just becomes your entire world. You think about nothing but how much it sucks. You can't eat, move, sleep or speak. So... yeah. Motion sickness is a very real thing. I think (based on zero evidence) that everybody has a different threshold but experiences the same effects past that. If you're lucky, your threshold is faster than you can move your head. If you aren't, chug dramamine and coffee and hope they invent something that turns off your sense of balance without making you delirious.
- tetraodonpuffer 9y ago
  not sure what your pathology is, but you might want to step back from coffee and caffeine in general as it might be a factor in some cases for triggering attacks (high sodium foods, chocolate and alcohol can be others)
AlphaSite 9y ago
There are ways to counter this: http://www.roadtovr.com/samsungs-new-headphones-trick-your-inner-ear-to-move-you-in-vr/ http://www.roadtovr.com/samsungs-new-headphones-trick-your-i...
e12e 9y ago
I believe it was someone on the ocolus team (carmack maybe) who mentioned what I call the horizon test: does the horizon (appear to) remain level when you tilt your head doelwn to your shoulder? It's a pretty demanding latency test, and I can also see how it ties into balance etc (there are some similarities with a tilting boat deck, for example). That said, I think simulator sickness and sickness from just playing on a big screen is complicated - maybe some will never enjoy it. Personally I'm rather sensitive to motion sickness from most fps games - but I enjoy playing elite:dangerous with a vr headset.
thope 9y ago
yes to me it's related to seasickness, just the opposite : there is a conflict between what you see and what your inner ear senses
tetraodonpuffer 9y ago
not only the vestibular system is involved in your proprioception, there are other parts of the body that do, for example the neck is definitely involved (which can be a factor in whiplash injuries, or cervical vertigo), even if the vestibular system was solved it might not be enough.
kolinko 9y ago
Most software for modern roomscale systems (i.e. Oculus and Vive) takes that into account - movement is mapped 1 to 1 with a person's movement. Travel happens through teleportation, which doesn't cause motion sickness. Rollercoasters and smooth/fps style movement is rarely used - and even if it is, the interface is designed tomminimise the effect you mentioned - e.g. user is put into a virtual cockpit, which makes the brain feel it's the terrain that's moving and not the person.
- istorical 9y ago
  Sure, but it's a workaround because our technology is not there yet.

Balgair 9y ago

The term in the medical literature you are looking for is 'Simulator Sickness'. There are 2 main theories on it's occurrence, one of which is the issues with the vestibular system. Wikipedia has a good introduction here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness To note, simulator sickness is not that new, we have been grappling with this for ~65 years since the first flight simulators. Despite the massive funding that the DoD has at it's fingertips, we have not found a cure for it OR there has not been a lot of work done to find a cure. However, it seems that more time in the simulator does help, thought it may then hinder actual flight performance. Also, the more experienced pilots had a higher occurrence of it. Again, it's not that well understood.

falcolas 9y ago
The same phenomenon (visual data conflicting with kinesthetic senses) causes vertigo; a common malady suffered by pilots flying through cloud banks. It's a major hurdle to overcome.
wlesieutre 9y ago
Mayo Clinic has some recent work on hooking electrodes up to your vestibular system: http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-and-vmocion-introduce-technology-which-creates-the-sensation-of-motion-transforming-virtual-reality/ http://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-and...
- Balgair 9y ago
  Wow! Now that is some pretty cool stuff! Besides the VR issues, this has some really good applications to things like vertigo and Meniere's disease (unfortunately one of the 'suicide diseases'). Maybe this really will help people! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re%27s_disease#Prognosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9ni%C3%A8re%27s_disease#...
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    I'm slightly skeptical at the moment because there was a lot of buzz at the time of the press release, and then it's total silence for more than a year now. I tried to find any sort of hands on commentary to confirm that it actually works and exists, but no luck. Still, if it were a total scam I wouldn't think the Mayo Clinic would put their name on it.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  Sometime in either the late 1990s or early-2000s (don't recall) there was a company that came out with a vestibular stimulator explicity for VR applications. They apparently sold units for game developers to use, along with a Windows API (hooked into Direct3D or DirectX - or something like that). It wasn't cheap - and ultimately they came into the market at the wrong time (dotcom crunch, and people didn't want VR stuff at the time anyway - the first VR winter was in full swing at that point).

hwillis 9y ago

>I'd say it's primarily caused by a disconnect between what the human vestibular system (your sense of balance and spatial orientation) is telling the brain your body is doing vs the acceleration forces that your body is feeling vs what your eyes are telling you about what the body is doing. The vestibular system has a prodigious amount of control over your life. I've got hearing damage and occasionally get vertigo spells (I carry dramamine in my wallet for emergencies). Every once in a while my balance sense just begins to swing around wildly. Sounds kind of cute. It will put you on your ass for 24-48 hours with zero possibility of doing anything. Even drinking water is hard. Without drugs the nausea just becomes your entire world. You think about nothing but how much it sucks. You can't eat, move, sleep or speak. So... yeah. Motion sickness is a very real thing. I think (based on zero evidence) that everybody has a different threshold but experiences the same effects past that. If you're lucky, your threshold is faster than you can move your head. If you aren't, chug dramamine and coffee and hope they invent something that turns off your sense of balance without making you delirious.

tetraodonpuffer 9y ago
not sure what your pathology is, but you might want to step back from coffee and caffeine in general as it might be a factor in some cases for triggering attacks (high sodium foods, chocolate and alcohol can be others)

AlphaSite 9y ago

There are ways to counter this: http://www.roadtovr.com/samsungs-new-headphones-trick-your-inner-ear-to-move-you-in-vr/ http://www.roadtovr.com/samsungs-new-headphones-trick-your-i...

e12e 9y ago

I believe it was someone on the ocolus team (carmack maybe) who mentioned what I call the horizon test: does the horizon (appear to) remain level when you tilt your head doelwn to your shoulder? It's a pretty demanding latency test, and I can also see how it ties into balance etc (there are some similarities with a tilting boat deck, for example). That said, I think simulator sickness and sickness from just playing on a big screen is complicated - maybe some will never enjoy it. Personally I'm rather sensitive to motion sickness from most fps games - but I enjoy playing elite:dangerous with a vr headset.

thope 9y ago

yes to me it's related to seasickness, just the opposite : there is a conflict between what you see and what your inner ear senses

tetraodonpuffer 9y ago

not only the vestibular system is involved in your proprioception, there are other parts of the body that do, for example the neck is definitely involved (which can be a factor in whiplash injuries, or cervical vertigo), even if the vestibular system was solved it might not be enough.

kolinko 9y ago

Most software for modern roomscale systems (i.e. Oculus and Vive) takes that into account - movement is mapped 1 to 1 with a person's movement. Travel happens through teleportation, which doesn't cause motion sickness. Rollercoasters and smooth/fps style movement is rarely used - and even if it is, the interface is designed tomminimise the effect you mentioned - e.g. user is put into a virtual cockpit, which makes the brain feel it's the terrain that's moving and not the person.

istorical 9y ago
Sure, but it's a workaround because our technology is not there yet.